Bishops! They are Biblical. Is Pastor?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by nate, Aug 29, 2006.

  1. nate

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    The question I ask is this. Baptist claim, at least many I know of, to be New Testament Churches and to follow the example of the NT Church. I know many IFB who make this statement. I know SDA who also make this claim. But my question is this in the NT when speaking of Church offices the term 'pastor' is never mentioned. However Bishop is. So how can you be following the NT Church format when a church doesn't acknowledge Bishops? I mean it seems redundant to me. We all agree on deacons but what about the main office of the Church. Pastor is never found in the NT. Preacher is found 4 times in the KJV NT. Once it is used to describe Noah certainly not a NT church leader-(2 Peter 2:5). The other three times it's used Paul calls himself a 'preacher' but the NASB footnotes say an alternative is herald. Basically Paul is calling himself a "spreader" of the Gospel not specifying a Church leadership position. I guess my second question is where and when did the term pastor originate?
    In Christ,
    Nate
     
  2. nate

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    Just to clarify my position I'm not suggesting 'Pastor' is unbiblical or wrong. However I am wondering where I can find it in the NT and as I presume if I can't how do Baptist/SDA justify it's use. I also wrote the op with KJVO folks in mind.
    In Christ,
    Nate
     
    #2 nate, Aug 29, 2006
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  3. EdSutton

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    Glad you edited this, for that was not what you said when I first read it, for the "not" was left out. I'll give you an answer shortly.

    Ed
     
  4. Link

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    'Pastors' shows up in Ephesians 4:11 without any explanation of what the word means. Literally, it means to shepherd. There is a closely related verb form in the New Testament, but translators obscured its relationship to the word 'pastor' or 'shepherd' by translating it 'feed' or 'tend.'

    In I Peter 5, Peter tells the elders to 'pastor' the flock of God. In Acts 20:28, Paul tells the elders of the church to 'pastor' the church of God, over whom the Holy Ghost had made them bishops/overseers.

    So we see the elders of the church being called bishops. Titus 1 also uses the terms 'bishop' and 'elders' interchangeably to refer to the same people.

    What are elders? This is confusing because a lot of churches have 'board elders' that aren't expected to pastor, and another guy called 'the pastor.' We don't see this in the Bible.

    What we do see is that the apostles appointed a _group of men_ to over see the church. Acts 14 shows us that the apostles Paul and Barnabas appointed 'elders' (older men/senior men) in the churches started through their ministry on that journey.

    So we don't see the 'Senior Pastor' role, except Peter did mention a 'Chief Pastor.' Of course, he was referring to the Lord.

    How is the Biblical elder different from the modern pastor?

    One is that the Biblical elder had to live up to qualifications listed in Titus 1 and I Timothy 3. For example, he had to rule his house well. Some churches require this now, but a lot of churches do not. After all, they call the guy 'pastor' and not 'elder', so they might not see the connection.

    In some churches, you just have to claim to be 'called' and speak well enough to get the job. In other churches, they will accept you if you went to Bible college or seminary and are in the career track for being an elder and speak well or jump through the denominational hoops.

    Something else to notice is that the apostles appointed elders/bishops from within the local church. They didn't hire a religious professional from the outside who would just leave after a couple of years.

    Some people get confused over this because they think Timothy and Titus were 'pastors' in the popular sense of the word. I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6-7 would seem to indicate that Timothy was an apostle. Clearly he was engaged in apostolic work with Paul. He was appointing local leadership, apparently, not serving as the local pastor in the modern sense of the word.

    Also, another main difference between the professional pastor and the Biblical elder is the scope of ministry. The modern pastor is expected to do most of the talking and teaching on Sunday morning. But in the New Testament, we see that this was the responsibility of various saints in the congregation. In Corinthians 14:26 showed that 'every one of you' had something to sing or say in church. Hebrews 10:24-25 also shows us that when we go to church we are supposed to edify one another.

    The Biblical elders is supposed to be 'apt to teach', but he isn't supposed to do all the talking in church or keep the saints from operating in their gifts. The elder is to be an example to the flock, including an example of how to minister so they can follow his example. They can see how he teaches and do the same in church, see how he sings, or uses whatever gifts he has. The Biblical elder, on the other hand, does have the responsibility to stop those who teach false doctrine like Titus 1 describes. They do this by lovingly confronting the trouble-makers as this scripture describes, and not by making rules that prevent the saints from using the gifts that scripture commands them to use.
     
  5. nate

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    Link thank you for your post. You bring up another excellent point. Since 1 Timothy 3 speaks of Bishops are there any qualifications for a Pastor to be found in Scripture? I'm not suggesting that those churches which have "pastors" change the title. I am asking how they can claim to be based on the NT church example.
     
  6. nate

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    Yes I apologize for the mistake. It was not on purpose. I clicked on the topic and re-read it and realized my mistake. I should have probably named it something else as well but I wanted a title that would catch everyone's attention.
    In Christ,
    Nate
     
  7. Inquiring Mind

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    Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

    1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.


    Phi 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

    1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

    1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    G1984 is used as visitation in these:
    Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

    1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

    G1985 is used as Overseer in this:
    Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
     
    #7 Inquiring Mind, Aug 30, 2006
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  8. Inquiring Mind

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    Deacon

    Phi 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

    1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

    1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

    1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    is used in 1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    All these verses use G1247 either as deacon, minister(verb), ministered, administered, serve, served, serveth, and administered.

    Mat_4:11; Mat_8:15; Mat_20:28; Mat_25:44; Mat_27:55; Mar_1:13; Mar_1:31; Mar_10:45; Mar_15:41; Luk_4:39; Luk_8:3; Luk_10:40; Luk_12:37; Luk_17:8; Luk_22:26; Luk_22:27; Joh_12:2; Joh_12:26; Act_6:2; Act_19:22; Rom_15:25; 2Co_3:3; 2Co_8:19; 2Co_8:20; 1Ti_3:10; 1Ti_3:13; 2Ti_1:18; Phm_1:13; Heb_6:10; 1Pe_1:12; 1Pe_4:10; 1Pe_4:11;


    All these verses use G1249 as either Deacon, Minister(noun), or Servant.

    Mat_20:26; Mat_22:13; Mat_23:11; Mar_9:35; Mar_10:43; Joh_2:5; Joh_2:9; Joh_12:26; Rom_13:4; Rom_15:8; Rom_16:1; 1Co_3:5; 2Co_3:6; 2Co_6:4; 2Co_11:15; 2Co_11:23; Gal_2:17; Eph_3:7; Eph_6:21; Phi_1:1; Col_1:7; Col_1:23; Col_1:25; Col_4:7; 1Th_3:2; 1Ti_3:8; 1Ti_3:12; 1Ti_4:6;
     
    #8 Inquiring Mind, Aug 30, 2006
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  9. Eric B

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    I thought you didn't believe in the Church and its offices.
     
  10. webdog

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    Me too. He must be talking about the offices his family fills. :)
     
  11. Inquiring Mind

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    I am the Bishop, My wife is the Deacon, my Daughter is the Elder. My son is the.....hmmmmmmmmmmm ran out of positions.......hmmmmmmmmm.....gotta find a title for him.
     
  12. EdSutton

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    Now! Now! Eric B and webdog. We have enough of this already on the BB. We don't need any more definition of character. :eek: :rolleyes:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Oh, wait a minute! I seem to recall posting something about the offices and gifts previously on a thread where Inquiring Mind was engaged. Sorry! I'll take my sarcasm back. At least for a foot or so! :laugh:

    Ed
     
  13. EdSutton

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    Uh, outta' curiosity, how did your daughter come to be the husband of one wi...?
    On second thought, don't answer that.

    Ed
     
  14. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    'Pastors' Ephesians 4:11
     
  15. Inquiring Mind

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    the reverse can be true too. "to be the wife of one husband".

    Unless you are saying that a deacon can not be a woman.

    If a deacon can not be a woman, then most assuredly a Pastor cannot be a woman either.
     
  16. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Since the Word of God says 'husband of one wife', then it is unbiblical to put a woman in a leadership role of Deacon, Pastor, Bishop, or Elder.

    Note: The last three titles are much the same office.
     
  17. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    This is from the Way of Life Encyclopedia:

    The Pastor's Authority

    SOME GENERAL LESSONS: Following are some Bible truths about pastoral authority: (1) There are certain men in churches called rulers and overseers (Ac 20:28; 1Th 5:12; Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:1; Tit 1:7). Every Christian does not have the same authority in the church; pastors are to lead the churches, not vice versa. (2) Church leaders are called by three different terms, but the terms refer to the same office; thus, the hierarchical form of church government which places bishops over elders is not biblical. (3) Each church is to have its own leaders and government (Tit 1:5; Ac 14:23). Since this is clearly the N.T. pattern, any outside form of control over the churches is unbiblical and dangerous. [See Church.] (4) Every pastor is to be God-called, ordained, and qualified (Ac 14:23; 1Ti 3:1-16; Tit 1:1-16). N.T. churches are not to be led by unordained men or by men who cannot do the whole work of a pastor. Every pastor is to be both a teacher and a ruler (Ac 20:28; 1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:9-11; 1Pe 5:1-2). (5) Deacons are never referred to in the capacity of ruling or overseeing churches. The deacon is a servant, not a ruler. Church rule by a deacon board is unscriptural and has caused great harm in many assemblies.

    More to follow...
     
  18. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    The Extent of the Pastor's Authority

    from Way of Life Encyclopedia: THE EXTENT OF THE PASTOR'S AUTHORITY. If responsibility implies a corresponding authority, which it does, we can get a clear idea of the areas and extent of a pastor's authority by considering his God-given responsibilities in the church. There are three major areas of pastoral responsibility, with corresponding authority: (1) A pastor has the responsibility and authority to teach and shepherd the church (Ac 20:28; Eph 4:11-12; 1Th 5:12; 1Pe 5:1-4). Pastors, therefore, have the authority to oversee all aspects of such ministry. They must have the final decision concerning what is taught and by whom, and must judge all things that are taught to make certain it is correct (1Co 14:29). In 1998, I was invited to preach in all of the services one Sunday in a church in Missouri. As the day progressed, I noticed that only the pastor and his family seemed happy about my preaching. The rest of the congregation seemed to be disgruntled about something. After the evening service, the men asked the pastor to join them for a meeting in a separate room in the church, and they informed him that they did not like my preaching and they did not believe he had the authority to invite special speakers without their permission. Not long after that, the pastor was dismissed. This is a prime example of rebellion against pastoral authority. It is not the congregation or the deacons who are responsible before God to oversee the teaching; that is the pastor's responsibility, and it is therefore his prerogative to make the decisions in this regard. If the teaching or preaching is heretical, that is a different matter, of course. In such a case, the congregation should not follow the pastor's lead. (2) A pastor has the responsibility and authority to protect the church from false teaching (Ac 20:28-31; 1Co 14:29; 1Ti 4:1-6; Tit 1:9-13). Pastors have the God-given responsibility and authority to determine what is taught and by whom, as well as to forbid the Christians from getting involved with false things, such as Bible studies conducted by the wrong kind of teachers, meetings in which unbiblical doctrines or practices are promoted, etc. This includes oversight of the music ministry of the church, because music is a form of teaching (Eph 5:19). (3) A pastor has the responsibility and authority to oversee the entire work of the church (Ac 20:28; 1Th 5:12; 1Pe 5:1-2). The pastor's position of overseeing the church is similar to that of a supervisor or manager. He is not to do all of the work of the ministry-every Christian must be busy in the work of Christ-but the pastor is to supervise all of the work. There is widespread rebellion against and resistance to pastoral authority today. Such is the product of the fallen human nature. The "old man" hates authority; he will not have anyone rule over him. But pastoral authority is God-given, and the one who resists a God-called pastor in his work of leading the church according to the Word of God will answer to Jesus Christ for his stubbornness. Hear the Bible: "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that much give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you" (Heb 13:17).
     
    #18 His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 30, 2006
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  19. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    Spiritual Characteristics of the Pastor's Authority

    from Way of Life Encyclopedia: SPIRITUAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE PASTOR'S AUTHORITY. The authority exercised by a pastor, missionary, or other church leader is to be distinctly different from that exercised by leaders in the secular world. (1) It is a ministering authority-the authority of a shepherd (Ac 20:28; 2Co 13:10; 1Pe 5:2). The authority of a pastor is for the purpose of building up and protecting God's people and work. (2) It is a submissive, humble authority-the authority of a steward (1Co 3:9; 4:1; 12:7; Tit 1:7; 1Pe 4:10; 5:3-5). The pastor is to rule under the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ, not by his own mind or will. The church is God's property; the people are God's people; the work is God's work. The pastor is merely a steward or caretaker. Contrast this with the ministry of proud, willful Diotrephes (3Jo 1:14). (3) It is a loving authority-the authority of a father (1Th 2:7-11). The pastor is to have a godly, loving, tender, sacrificial consideration for the welfare of the people. His rule is not to be overbearing and self-serving.
     
    #19 His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 30, 2006
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  20. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    Limitations to the Pastor's Authority

    from Way of Life Encyclopedia: LIMITATIONS TO THE PASTOR'S AUTHORITY. A pastor only has such authority as delegated to him by God. Christians are never told to submit blindly to a church leader, but to submit to truly God-called men who are leading according to the Word of God. As the Apostle Paul said, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (1Co 11:1). Paul could demand that others follow him because he was following Christ and was faithfully preaching the message given to him by Christ. Apart from that, even Paul had no authority. He warned the churches of Galatia that if he were to preach any other gospel, they were to reject him (Ga 1:8). Christians should reject the ministry of any man who does not possess the following qualities: (1) A pastor's authority is based on the message he preaches. Heb 13:7 instructs Christians to submit to those who have spoken the Word of God. A preacher's authority is in God's Word, not in his own words and desires. If a pastor or teacher strays from the Bible, his listeners should not follow him; he has strayed from his authority (Ac 17:10-11; 1Th 5:21). (2) A pastor's authority is based on his call from God (Ac 20:28). The elders of the church at Ephesus were appointed by the Holy Spirit. This is a foundational basis for spiritual authority. Christians are only to submit to men who give plain evidence that they are called of God. (3) A pastor's authority is based on the life he lives. Heb 13:7 says, "Obey them that have the rule over you ... remembering the end of their conversation." This speaks of their manner of life. If a man is a hypocrite, if he does not practice in his daily life the right kind of Christian living, he has no authority to lead others. (4) A pastor's authority is based on the work he does. 1Th. 5:12-13 refers to those who are over us in the Lord and requires that we "esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake..." A man's spiritual ministry must be according to the Word of God, or he ceases to have authority over others.
     
    #20 His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 30, 2006
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