Bishops! They are Biblical. Is Pastor?

Yes, I agree that Judas was not saved but so what? Yes, Nicodemus was saved while most, at least, of the Pharisee sect were not, but again, so what? And if many of Jesus' disciples were not "truly of Him" in John 6, for the third time, so what? I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but what does any of that have to do with the point I spoke, the remarks of the person whom I was answering, or the thread, itself?
FTR, I do not find that Scripture ever describes either Judas or Nicodemus as "noted" or "of note" among the groups, so I would respectfully suggest that those two ideas are your opinion, (which you are certainly entitled to have) but not one expressed in Scripture. And I definitely do disagree with the idea of attempting to inject "truly" into the text of John 6:66, which happens to be the passage you are referring to, when it flatly and simply is not in the text, at all. One may be able to believe any of the above to be consistent with Scripture, but no one can say that Scripture declares this, for it does not. By contrast, Scripture does expressly say that "Andronicus and Junia are...of note among the apostles," (Rom. 16:7 - NKJV).
Finally, let's briefly look at evidence that this is telling us that these two were 'apostles' i.e. were so identified, here. The Greek phrase is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]εισιν επισημοι εν τοις αποστολοις [/FONT]" rendered in the NKJV as "who are of note among the apostles" and as "outstanding among the apostles" in the HCSB, which I previously quoted. There are one word and one phrase that are in play, here. The word is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]επισημοι[/FONT]", and the phrase is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]εν τοις αποστολοις[/FONT]". ''EpisEmoi' (episEmos) is properly 'having a mark on it', 'stamped', 'coined', or 'marked' (Thayer's Lexicon) and is translated (in its 'good' sense) as illustrious, outstanding, noted, or prominent. "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eν τοις αποστολοις[/FONT]" would seem to be the locative case, (as opposed to the instrumental or 'pure' dative), hence, the two were outstanding individuals who were of the group of apostles, would seem to be the import. Is it possible that this merely means 'well known' to the apostles? Yes, but more likely to have a somewhat stronger meaning of 'outstanding', 'prominent', or 'marked' and is somewhat akin to Matthias being 'numbered', IMO.
And as they would not have been 'marked' or 'numbered', in the case of Matthias, to the apostles, it seems more likely that they were prominent 'in' these known as apostles. Is your question/take/idea a possibility? Again, yes it could be, but this farm boy thinks it's less likely than what I'm suggesting the evidence and Greek leads to.

I'd suggest that if the misplaced idea that the positions or offices of the church were not confuted with what are delineated as the spiritual gifts, this would not even be an issue. But many just love the idea (subtly of course) of having some supposed 'authority' above others. Hence, we love the idea of being "The Pastor", one who was "called of God" and ""surrendered" to the 'ministry'". So we take the correct idea that a bishop is to be a male, tack on a little desire to 'lead a flock' or 'get a bunch of followers' for us country folk types, and "Voila!"- The pastor and bishop/elder as one and the same looks better, given that one of the 'jobs/duties' of the elders is that of 'shepherding'. Tack onto that the fact that most folks don't want too much competition with themselves, especially when one loves to have some supposed authority, and we are where we are. Somehow, I seem to recall Jesus saying something about that a time or two.

Somehow, I don't seem to recall reading anywhere that he gave any of that authority away to any so-called, self-styled 'pastor'. :sleeping_2: : G'nite all!

Ed

 

Why, then, is "ruling their children and their own houses well" (I Tim. 3:12) a qualification for deacons?

 

I previously attempted to respond to this post, but must have somehow deleted it, accidentally. So I'll try again.
Link, I'd offer that your short post here is one where you have hit the nail dead center with your head!! I agree with what you have written wholeheartedly. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Ed

 

Sorry, I missed this post earlier, and did not comment.

Yes, certainly there were "other Apostles existing prior to that of Paul", as you have written.

#1. The twelve (including Judas Iscariot) called 'apostles' in Matthew 10: 2-4.

#2. Matthias [ Acts 1:26, where it is said - "And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. " (cp. Acts 6:2- " Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables." and c.f. Luke 8:1 and John 6:67,70 whre we woud see that the phrase "the twelve" is used multiple times for the 'extant company' of the Apostles. Hence, "the twelve (including Matthais).

#3. James, the Lord's brother - i.e. also known extra-Biblically as "James, the Just" [whom the risen Lord made a 'special' appearance to, BTW, (I. Cor. 15:7)] and spoken of viz. " But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19).

As I count, that makes 14 different individuals who were spoken of as "apostles" and also who were "existing prior to that of Paul", as you put it.

Hope that helps.

Ed

 

Welcome to the BB. :thumbsup: (Don't forget your 'flak' jacket and hardhat! :laugh

Although you did not ask this of me, I'll toss in my two yen, anyway. In short, and colloquially, I'd offer that Biblically, the 'diaconate' is "Training Camp" for the "bishoprick". Read all I Tim. 3, and compare with Acts 6, Acts 20, and Titus 1 and see what I mean, especially where the concepts of "not a novice", "proved" and "is blameless" vs. "being found blameless" are given.
And as to the "Why"- Scripture says it, happens to be the best answer I can give, except to add that the idea of 'a good testimony of the church' is suggested, as well.

Hope this helps.

Ed

 

Look up Ephesians 4:11.

Seems pretty clear...

 

Yes it does! Very clear to me, anyway. Pastor (and) teacher is spoken of as one of some twenty-some-odd 'spiritual gifts' that are ennumerated and given to the church. But 'pastor' is NOT spoken of as a 'position' or 'office' in the (esp. local) church.

Bishop or elder is spoken of as a 'position(s)' or 'office(s)' in the (esp. local) church, (of a possible maximum of no more than five ennumerated - The Lord Jesus Christ who is the head, a.k.a. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls; bishop(s)/elder(s); deacon(s); deaconess(es)??; and saint(s); - as I read it.). But 'bishop' or 'elder' is NOT spoken of as a 'spiritual gift' that is given to the church. That is how I read it anyway.

As I have consistently stated, the Bible does not confute or confuse these 'gifts' and 'offices'. We would do well to not do so, either.:thumbsup:

Ed

 

Looking back over the thread, I notice that I failed to comment on this overall very excellent post. But it does merit some comment, IMO. So here goes.

Amen and Amen! Preach on Brother or Sister Link! Your position is consistent with what I believe Scripture teaches, and you have probably stated this better than I. :thumbs: :thumbsup: :applause: raise:


Ed

 

Why do so few Baptist churches use the biblical term "bishop"?

 

The five fold ministry is for the building up of the body of Christ.

Some pastors, some teachers, some prophets, some apostles, some evangelists.

I don't see 'to the letter' instructions on how to organise these offices, like the laws of Moses were.

Christ came to do away with the law.

Pastor is biblical. I think the word means 'shepherd'. Some teach, some evangelise, some shepherd (look after) the flock etc etc.

How hard is that?

 

If ya' got your 'hardhat' and 'flak jacket', welcome to the BB. (If not, I suggest gettin' 'em, but welcome anyway. :laugh: ) Anywho, let's look at your post. I completely agree with parts of it, disagree with others, and partially agree with still others. (I'll toss in my two pfennings worth after each sentence or so using quotes around your words, and putting them in 'bold'.)

"The five fold ministry is for the building up of the body of Christ."

I basically agree but might add that I would not use "five fold ministry" in this sentence, but rather 'gifts' as that is the subject here in Eph.4, and would add that (these) gifts are given for the three-fold? purpose of - (a.) for the equipping of the saints (b.) for the work of ministry, (c.) for the edifying of the body of Christ, to use the NKJV language.

"Some pastors, some teachers, some prophets, some apostles, some evangelists."

Basically agree, although I'm not sure I would differentiate, here, between pastor and teacher.

"I don't see 'to the letter' instructions on how to organise these offices, like the laws of Moses were."

Agreed as to 'to the letter' instructions, per se. Disagree with confuting of "offices" in the place of "gifts", as I have stated many times.

"Christ came to do away with the law."

Let's slow down just a bit on this one. Although I think I know what you are saying, or at least intending, I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing, here. If, by the phrase, - No- let me start from scratch, on this.
Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matt. 5: 17-18 - NKJV) So I would ask what exactly do you mean by "do away with"? And I would also like to know what you mean by "the law"? For I submit that the Lord Jesus Christ did not "do away" with "the law", at all. The sentence, is far too ambiguous, and so I'd like to explain what I mean, and believe.
First, as to "the law" - As to the Mosaic Law, I agree that we are not under it, for we are not 'under' the law but 'under' grace. BTW, as far as I can tell, any time we have the exact words in the NT of "the law" it refers to the Mosaic Law. When something else it intended, it is fairly clear from additional words. For instance, I suggest that we are now said to be 'guided by' or 'under', if you will, four laws- the law of faith; the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, where it is contrasted to the law of sin and death, another phrase that refers to the Mosaic Law, as I see it; the Law of liberty; and the royal Law or "Law of Love". And I would prefer to say, as opposed to "do away with" that the Lord, after 'fulfilling' the Mosaic Law, then - well, I'll let the Scripture say it, instead -

Perhaps I'm quibbling, which I do not really like to do, but I would prefer to say that "the law", was "set aside" by the Lord Jesus, after he fulfilled it, and He, Himself, nailed it to the cross. Thereupon it could be described as "done away", I guess, and still satisfy my nitpickin', as well.


"Pastor is biblical. I think the word means 'shepherd'. Some teach, some evangelise, some shepherd (look after) the flock etc etc."

I fully agree that the gift of pastor (actually pastor and teacher) is Biblical. In fact, I stated that earlier in the thread. Certainly, not everybody does the same thing.

"How hard is that?"

Apparently pretty hard for some, at least as to the 'gift' part. Just check out the marquee boards of most churches. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed