Blaming God for mans sin.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Apr 24, 2016.

  1. Iconoclast

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    A misunderstanding of the fall and it's consequences has fallen man looking to blame God for mans sin and wickedness.
    This sin manifests itself under the guise of "questioning God's revealed will"
    in a recently posted article ...True Covenanter expresses this thought;

     
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  2. Zaac

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    So I'm assuming this means that some believe that because God knows they are going to sin, and knows which sins they are going to admit throughout their lives at any given time, that somehow this makes God culpable for their sin because of His permissive will?

    IF this is what some are trying to say, then they are dead wrong and in need of a good apologetics class or two or three.
     
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  3. agedman

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    Flip Wilson, "Devil made me do it."

    (Well somebody was going to post the link eventually on the thread - might as well have been me.)

    :)
     
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  4. Van

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    If our sins are predestined (God ordains whatsoever comes to pass) then our each and every sin is caused by God. Of course this is wrong, for God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. But advocates of the unnamed doctrine deny it. LOL
     
  5. Zaac

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    I don't understand how folks can know the Biblical character of God and deduce that HE MADE us sin.
     
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  6. agedman

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    God allows fallen humankind to make choices conditioned upon the nature of the fallen.

    God's allowance for those choices is not some indication that God condones those choices and "ordains" the choices.

    God does not "predestine" sin.

    God does not "cause" sin.

    God established the end result of sin, and provides daily warnings in which the fallen not only ignore, but will and do take great joy and pride in flaunting the excess in spite of the warnings.

    God will use the fallen as He pleases for the outcomes He desires.

    God causes or ordains for salvation those that He gives to His Son and those will come to Him - that is the teaching of Scriptures. The rest enjoy the retirement package in which they embrace(d) and God is not responsible for the choosing, but does specify the outcome of those fallen choices - death - both physical and spiritual.

    There are those who would proclaim that there is some great "freedom" in which the fallen may, by their own work and volition, gain that which only God grants. That is just not what the Scriptures present. For no one but God can make Spiritually clean what is unclean, or Spiritually pure what is impure.
     
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  7. HankD

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    We've been blaming God from the very beginning...

    NKJV Genesis 3:12 Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."

    HankD
     
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  8. Iconoclast

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    No.....not trying to say that. You are over thinking it.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    Of course you are wrong on both counts Dr.Van T
     
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  10. Internet Theologian

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    I've yet to see in Scripture, nor have I heard any person on here state that God predestined sin. You should really argue facts and not with straw man arguments. Anyone can erect a straw man and then beat it up.

    See? You've erected a straw man and then immediately after declare yourself the winner and the false argument wrong.

    He's God like that.

    Erecting again, and so soon? :)
     
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  11. JonC

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    I don't understand how folks can know the character of man and deduce a dogmatic understanding of God beyond what has been revealed through Scripture.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk
     
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  12. HankD

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    Blaming God for man's sin

    James 1
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

    HankD
     
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  13. Zaac

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    I believe we run into problems when we try to confine God to our LINEAR measure of time. God exists outside of time. Time was measured so that WE would have a better understanding. An infinite God doesn't need time.

    He's the Beginning and the End.

    That always makes me think about God sitting inside His own circular time continuum that has no beginning or end. But it surrounds the finite linear time stream of man whereby He knows everything because He can see everything in man's finite time stream.
     
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  14. HankD

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    Yes Zaac, agreed, God is infinitely beyond us, we who are imprisoned in the time continuum who even have problems in the here and now discerning his works...

    Ecclesiastes 3
    11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

    HankD
     
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  15. Van

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    Hi IT, lets view the facts. The unnamed doctrine teaches God predestines everything. God knows everything and His knowledge is certain, therefore what He knows will happen will happen. You can run from this truth but the published views are there for all to read.

    People say they are not exhaustive determinists, but they are.

    The WCF is crystal, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Ordain means predestine.

    Here is Boettner on the subject:
     
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  16. Internet Theologian

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    Hi Van,

    Sir you are still erecting a straw man and stretching things way beyond recognition.
     
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  17. HankD

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    This is one area which keeps me from throwing my towel in with calvinism. - God's relationship to sin tempered against the fact that logically speaking according to calvinism (IMO of course) the logical extension of the origin of sin would have God of necessity being responsible for sin if He indeed is totally sovereign (and I believe He is). But it is impossible for me to accept this aforementioned God and sin relationship of responsibility at all.

    So, I can't resolve this tension in my own mind (my grey matter is easily challenged) In fact my basic question is - How can sin even exist in the same universe with a holy omni-everything God?

    But it does!

    For eternity God existed, holiness unabated.
    Then Genesis 1 "happened".
    Then sin came into being - Romans 5:12

    I suppose one could say that it doesn't exist (only in the time continuum) that it did at one "time" which sin Jesus removed as far as the east is from the west.

    I'm already getting a headache.

    HankD
     
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  18. agedman

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    What is sin?

    Ultimately, sin is rebellion to or resistance to God, the nature of God, and the ways of God. ​

    The manifestation of sin:

    God could not rebel or resist Himself. That just isn't logical.

    God can not determine, ordain, or experience in any manner rebellion or resistance - sin.

    Therefore, God in making all things, could not include sin, nor author sin.​

    God made man in His image - in the character and nature of God and God's ways. ​

    God did not implant sin in the man, but man was disclosed as sinful when he rebelled. The same as the enemy of believers was disclosed as sinful when he also rebelled.​

    Responsibility:

    The Sovereign made all things - that is Scriptural. ​

    The rebellion was found among the things made - that is Scriptural.

    That rebellion was called sin - that is Scriptural.​

    That one would blame how God made the things - such statements can be found in the Scriptures.​

    Allowances and Tolerances in the original design:

    Some recognize that it wasn't a fault on God's part, but a matter of allowance and tolerance in the design that the mechanism God made could by self determination

    Allowances and tolerances are spelled out in the user manual(s) as warnings that good can be abused and that tolerance is limited.

    In Eden the command was given, in our modern time the Scriptures are given. That rebellion continues from Eden even throughout this day is the evidence that allowances and tolerances have been well exceeded. ​

    God made me that way?

    God makes vessels - vessels of honor and dishonor.

    The vessel does not have the right nor authority to even ask why God made them, much less why God made them in the manner He did. ​

    Humankind cannot hold God responsible.
    It is God that holds humankind responsible. If the vessel assumes what it is not intended, God is not responsible, but God holds the vessel responsible.

    Why would God make what He knows will fail and hold responsibility for failure on what is made?

    This is the basic question that generally resolves to one of two answers.
    1. God made sin
    2. God allowed or planned ahead (just in case) the sin or sinfulness.​

    The first answer is given as false being proved by the statements above.

    The second answer is shown as the pre-planned giving of the Son of Righteousness throughout Scriptures.

    Again, a matter of tolerances and allowances.

    God delegated authority to the enemy of believers a certain station. That authority was violated by excess in allowance and tolerance.

    God delegated authority to the occupants of the Eden. That authority was violated by excess in allowance and tolerance.

    As a result God proves His love by providing those of His choosing that manner of reconciliation in which the believer may abide.
    That God does not choose all does not diminish nor demean the authority of God to select among the many those who will be His to keep.

    Has anyone ever noticed that those not chosen don't scream about how unfairly they are treated? Rather, they joy in the excess and flaunt rebellion against the tolerances. They don't care and don't care to care, even making gods of their own vanity and pleasures.

    It is only those God chose who want to proclaim how unfair God is at who and how He chooses.

    Is such not silly?
     
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  19. tyndale1946

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    Yeah Hath God Said?... Those who question what God says fall into sin... Surely the Word Of God does not mean that does it?... I thought God was a God of love isn't he?... Then why would he withhold from me something I desire?... Doesn't that show his love?... If it doesn't then God is unfair isn't he?... Can I help who I love didn't God make me that way?... And the list goes on and on and on... So how do you answer my Christian brethren?... Brother Glen
     
  20. Van

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    LOL, the unnamed doctrine teaches God predestined everything which includes our each and every sin. Then they say God is not the author of sin. Get it? It is a logical impossibility, so instead I am charged with this or that. The answer is simple, God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. The WCF is wrong as is the unnamed doctrine.

    In order for people to be responsible for their choice to sin, they must be able to not sin. But the unnamed doctrine teaches that because people can choose between various sins, they are responsible for those choices. But their only choice is death, they cannot choose life. God, OTOH says God sets before us the choice of life or death. Only when people have the integrity to face the fallacy of the unnamed doctrine will all this absurdly end.
     

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