Blast from the Past

You're all a bunch of card-playing sinners.

That's why I play dominos instead.:thumbs:

 

I think we should not let our children have rocking horses.

If they have a rocking horse they might want a real horse
Real horses are used for horse racing
People gamble on horse races
If my Christian children have a horse people associate a horse with racing and racing with gambling so they think it okay to gamble
Rocking horses lead to gambling


Come on folks - we need to lighten up. What saith the word? Isn't that enough? No one has yet shown a single thing in the original list that the word of God addresses even in the slightest. If God doesn't deal with it what makes us think that we need to?

 

:laugh: That was great. It's almost a perfect reflection of the cards argument.

My question is this: With such a foolproof argument, why wasn't "Do you allow your children to use rocking horses?" one of the questions? :laugh:

 

In case you can't tell I am terribly frustrated with these totally man-made rules and regulations. It may shock you to learn that I am a fundamentalist. My mission board, my home church, and my entire background is fundamentalist. I have no problem with Biblical standards. We have some family standards that we have adopted based not on clear teaching, but on Bible principles.

It is these totally man created rules that frustrate me. The cards argument can be used to condemn any action we don't like. With that logic we could not watch any sporting events, play horseshoes, backgammon, or any number of games. Why would Paul talk about races and boxing, both which have ALWAYS been associated with gambling if we were to used this kind of logic to determine our practices.

How about something along these lines:

Do justly
Love mercy
Walk humbly with your God

 

I agree 100%, on all counts.

 

Hi C4K. I understand what you mean. But do you think that some of those Biblical principles you apply to specific situations some would call man-made? Does this not prove the point?

Perhaps the truth is that we all have rules that others would call man-made, but in the eyes of those making the rules, they are situations to which Biblical principles have been applied.

Some, such as yourself, are honest enough to state these rules in such terms, as not specifically from Scripture, but applications of Scriptural principles.

I know you are a fundamentalist, now I am not sure about Jr, I mean, he does not even wear a tie to church anymore! :laugh: (Of course I jest...)

Enjoy your day, I've got to go and find something productive to do, if my supporting churches knew about all the time I spent on forums they'd add some questions.

 

Of course, but these are my choices, not a principle that I can try to force on anyone else. I admit they are man-made for me and my family. But that is where it stops. They are, in essence, my opinion.

I preached from Ephesians 4 Sunday and God reminded me of some things that He says we are to edify each other to do.

Come to the unity of the faith
Come to the knowledge of Son of God
Growing to perfect (mature) believers
Growing to the measure of the fullness of Christ

What would happen in the body of Christ if we focused on this instead of card playing, the cinema, or facial hair?

 

100% agreement.

Now you've done it...you've gone and watched a movie about bearded poker players.

 

Whenever we develop a man-made standard, it is because we consider it to be clearly derived from biblical principles. But whenever someone else develops one that doesn't appeal to us, we think he's a crackpot.

Would you support a missionary who smoked cigarettes? No? Not even G. Campbell Morgan?

But why not? Don't give me this "stewarship" and "temple" litany. By that logic, you'd exclude fat folks and Type-A workaholics. The fact is, you've figured out that tobacco use displeases the Lord and hurts a Christian's testimony, and you are sticking to that principle because you believe it. (And it doesn't hurt to notice that you have the great majority on your side, which is a sure sign of God's approval.)

We have to apply the scriptures; we cannot stop with merely reading them and abstaining from food offered to idols. We will disagree. That inheres in the nature of the case.

 

I think the point that npet makes here is one that should be seriously considered by those who think they hold themselves to a "higher" standard.

I'm going to tell of my own:

I was raised in a strict household. "Worldly" things such as dancing, cards (except Rook), smoking and the like were held right up there with pride, lying, and adultry as paths straight to hell. Maybe I shouldn't have put pride in there as lots of the folk in the churches (and especially my parents) we attended were very proud of the fact that in their households such things weren't even a question.

My parents, from the time I was quite young began keeping my brother and I away from their families. Now my mother had 13 brothers and sisters, my dad had four. Most of those had multiple children(as in more than 2!). My parents reasoning for this is that they had been told the "truth" and refused it and they didn't want us kids "corrupted" (so much for the God's ability to care for His children and keep us from harm ). As you can imagine their holier than thou attitude created an abundance of bitterness among their siblings.

Fast forward 35 years. My parents will be celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary. It's going to be some celebration as there is no one in the family left to celebrate. The result of their "higher standards" is that they have little to no relationship with the majority of their sibling. My brother has all but disowned them, because they couldn't see past the idea that he didn't "do" things exactly the way they thought he should.

On my part, I remember all the fusses and fights of my childhood between my parents and their siblings and on top of that the failure of my parents to nuture relationships between me and my aunts and uncles means I don't even know how to contact most of them. How sad is that. Out of 17 siblings, about a dozen are still alive or so I'm told. Of that dozen, my parent have regular contact with only one and that is mostly due to that one not allowing the door to close between them even though she has/had reason enough. And she has never claimed to be a Christian (because they are a judgmental bunch with a lot of rules that don't make sense and she lived through enough of that kind of thing when she was a child. I should add that my maternal grandfather was a freewill baptist preacher)

Any witness I might have had among my cousins was destroyed because my parents thought that "standards" were more important than relationships. I can't pick up the pieces because from what little contact I have with family members the cousins are either all scattered or, because they remember how my parents were when they were young, have no interest in developing a relationship.

Now, these questions are for DHK: My parents believed exactly how you seem to believe. Would you rather this young person in question develop a relationship between themselves and their family that might some day lead to one of them recognizing the grace of God or would you rather that young person hold themselves aloof, keeping to the traditions of your church, and risk losing all influence?

Did this young person really lose their ability to witness to this family or did he by playing honestly and without cheating, create the next opportunity to witness Christ to his family?

Does God offer us love or judgement? I was of the opinion that it takes God to cleanse us from sin and worldliness. Perhaps I'm wrong and sinners should take a course "Biblical principals" and apply them to their lives before they become worthy of the blood of Christ.

 

Nope, I fully respect their view and their right to hold it. My problem is when it becomes some type of test of worthiness or spirituality.

 

...don't forget, rocking horses are made of wood. Our kids should never be allowed to climb trees, as they would be "unequally yoked" with the evil wood. Matter of fact, they shouldn't be allowed to color on paper, as paper is made from wood, and we wouldn't want to support those evil horse races! You might as well remove toilet paper too, and let them use leaves. Oh wait, leaves come from trees...maybe grass...

 

My experience is the opposite of yours. I was saved when I was 20. My background was Roman Catholic. My parents did drink, socially. I did go to the movies, play cards, go to dances, listened to rock, etc. But when I got saved I gave up all of that. My life changed completely. I gave up the things of the world. They thought that I had joined a cult. Many years later they have seen the consistency of my Christian life. I have never strayed from the stand I took those many years ago. "Old things were passed away; all things were become new." God had changed my life completely and forever.
And now for some others to come and say by their lives that the consistent Christian life that you live is all just hypocrisy, has damaged that relationship. If there is no difference now between Christianity and their religion why should they change? The greatest detriment to the church is the moral outsider and the immoral insider. (One might replace the words moral and immoral with the words righteous and worldly).

Biblical principals are not communicated through poker. They are communicate through a separated holy Godly life, that demands a testimony for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I myself have some very narrow standards regarding some things. In those areas, I am very nearly the strictest person I've ever met. To me, these standards seem self-evidently wise and God-honoring, and I have led my wife and kids in holding to these standards consistently. But I have long since given up on the hope that I can convince others to believe the same.

That said, I would point out that I have a fine and open relationship with my pagan siblings and cousins and aunts and uncles. (My parents are dead.) I have a ton of unsaved customers (I fix stuff) who know me to be "an extremely conservative fundamentalist" and who nevertheless like me just fine.

My kids are grown and gone, all living for the Lord. One married a Southern Baptist, so you know how that goes. The other two still adhere, for the most part, to the standards they were raised with. All are happy, balanced, functioning members of church and society.

I mean to say that there is no inherent link between narrow standards and unfriendliness. Folks are folks and they fail in many ways. There are some groups of Christians who have an unbalanced view of separation that makes them mean and proud. It isn't the narrow standards, it's the attitude that needs adjusting.

And here's an extra tidbit at no charge: In the '70s I was a member of a church that held to standards even narrower than mine. They thought I was in the dark regarding worldliness. But we got along, loved each other, and had wonderful church services full of victory and glory. I found out a few years ago that practically ALL of my friends back there had their marriages eventually wrecked by adultery. I have no explanation; just wanted to mention it to add to the confusion.

 

Maybe this is an aside, but it is to do with the argument that goes something like, "We have to do what they do, be what they are and go where they go if we are going to win them."

I grow up on stories about men and women who prayed and preached (the men anyway). They went some where, held up standards and told people come to Christ and leave your sin. Bars closed, places of ill repute closed, lives were changed.

Now we get told, "Buy them a beer so you get a chance to witness to them. Don't you dare be different or you'll never get to witness."

When did God's power lessen to the point where He can no longer change lives and we need to be like them to win them?

Now if you have any kind of a stand at all you're a self-righteous prig? (What is a prig? Maybe that's a complement...)

Anyway, I am not saying churches/boards/other believers have the right to tell you not to play cards or ask what your wife wears to bed. I just saw the argument of be like them to win them and thought I'd start on another rabbit trail.

 

prig

3 : one who offends or irritates by observance of proprieties (as of speech or manners) in a pointed manner or to an obnoxious degree

 

Thanks. Now, do you have that memorised or did you cut and paste?

Have a good evening all. I am going to go watch the news and see what's wrong with the world.

 

I used cut and paste. I wasn't sure of the official definition until I looked it up. I was re-using the word as I had seen it used.

You're watching TV? You just totally destroyed your Christian witness! You know they show adult-rated films and poker tournaments on TV. If anyone saw you watching TV, they might conclude that Christians think it's okay to watch adult films and gamble. I sure hope you don't expect to serve as a missionary. You just disqualified yourself.

:laugh:

 

It gets worse, my wife and a young lady staying with us was watching Sherlock Holmes, so I watched a little of that instead... so it was not even profitable TV... I am writing my resignation letter now to save my mission board the shame of having to discipline me...

Oh! Just remembered, I am an independent and not with any mission board. :laugh:

 

Good thing.