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Blinding Their Minds to the Gospel

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 17, 2011.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You just keep on playing your silly games! You know fully well that such blindness occurred in Adam at the fall and it is part of the fallen human nature exhibited from birth as children must be restrained from doing evil by NATURE!

     
    #21 The Biblicist, Dec 18, 2011
  2. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Earlier I asked you:

    Are you saying that the following passage is only in regard to Adam and Eve and no one else?:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    you evidently do because you said:
    The ones who are blinded are described by Paul as "them that are lost."

    The Greek word translated "them that are lost" is in the "present" tense so the ones who are spoken of as being blinded were living at the time when Paul wrote those words:

    "...it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not."

    Therefore the reference is NOT to Adam and Eve.

    It is you who keeps playing silly games and not me. You prove that you are willing to say anything, no matter how ridiculous, in order to try to reconcile your discredited ideas with what the Scriptures actually say.

    Now please answer my question:

    How can Satan blind someone who is already blind?
     
    #22 Jerry Shugart, Dec 18, 2011
  3. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Earlier I asked you:

    Are you saying that the following passage is only in regard to Adam and Eve and no one else?:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    You evidently do because you said:

    The ones who are blinded are described by Paul as "them that are lost."

    The Greek word translated "them that are lost" is in the "present" tense so the ones who are spoken of as being blinded were living at the time when Paul wrote those words:

    "...it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not."

    Therefore the reference is NOT to Adam and Eve.

    It is you who keeps playing silly games and not me. You prove that you are willing to say anything, no matter how ridiculous, in order to try to reconcile your discredited ideas with what the Scriptures actually say.

    Now please answer my question:

    How can Satan blind someone who is already blind?
     
    #23 Jerry Shugart, Dec 24, 2011
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The trick in your question is found in the word "only"! The present tense truth in this text is true as much at the time of Paul as it was at the fall of Adam and as true presently as then. This truth is illustrated by Genesis 1:3.

    The fall of Adam produced spiritual death in Adam and thus spiritual blindness in Adam. The gospel was preached to Adam by God in Genesis 3:15. That would have been totally unnessary if Adam was not lost in sin and needed a redeemer.

    Since, the whole human race acted in one man, then "BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD" and therefore they are born spiritually dead in sin because THEY HAD BEEN ALREADY BLINDED in Adam's fall!

    The WHOLE of human nature consisted in ONE MAN - Adam. When Adam fell so did the WHOLE OF HUMAN NATURE as human nature and Adam were one and the same!
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Dec 24, 2011
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: You have been shown repeatedly in understandable terms that a wayfaring man though a fool could comprehend, that anger, selfishness, wrath, stubbornness, or even your misconception of deceit, in and of themselves are not necessarily sin. Even God Himself can be shown to exhibit all these acts as Jerry has succinctly illustrated, yet without sin.

    To attribute sin to the innocence of infancy is beyond any semblance of reason. Oh well. Onward and upward.
     
    #25 Heavenly Pilgrim, Dec 24, 2011
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    First of all, the words at Genesis 3:15 were not addressed to Adam.

    But for the sake of argument, let us assume that it was also given to Adam at that time. According to the Scriptures Adam was blinded spiritually as soon as he sinned (Gen.3:6). Therefore, how could Satan blind his mind to the gospel at Genesis 3:15 since his mind was already blind to it?

    Of course the lost ones who do not believe in this passage are not Adam and Eve:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From this we can understand that even those who are lost and believe not have the ability to believe the gospel and many of them would if they were not blinded to it by the god of this age.
     
    #26 Jerry Shugart, Dec 24, 2011
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    :laugh: All that 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 claims is that the minds of the lost are blinded to the gospel by Satan. Adam previously fell into sin and prior to that there was no preaching of the gospel becuase no gospel was necessary because no man was lost prior to the fall. Hence, spriitual blindness preceded preaching of the gospel to Adam and Eve.
     
    #27 The Biblicist, Dec 24, 2011
  8. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    You still have not explained how Satan could blind adam's mind to the gospel since his mind was already blind to it!
     
    #28 Jerry Shugart, Dec 24, 2011
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Well, if someone/anyone is blinded to the gospel from birth, then guess who is responsible?
     
    #29 convicted1, Dec 24, 2011
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is an absolute lie! I responded to the original post and demonstrated that every single text used to support that lie was jerked out of context.

    In every case you used God as the example. There is a difference between JUST wrath and anger and unjust anger and wrath BUT YOU MADE NO DISTINCTION.

    The terms selfishness, stubborness are NEVER ONCE used for God or for the fruits of the Spirit because they always are used in scripture as NEGATIVE and sinful connotations NEVER righteous. This is plain deceitful use of God's Word.

    You guys will never accept any kind of evidence regardless how strong the evidence because you minds are hardened to the truth of God's word and so you ignore the evidence and keep on telling one lie after another.
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Dec 24, 2011
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    TIME WHEN BLINDNESS BY SATAN OCCURRED: When Adam sinned! Spiritual blindness and spirtual deafnes inseperable with spiritual death at the point of sinning.

    TIME OF BLINDNESSS: Between the time Adam sinned and the time they believed the gospel. There is no record of how long between time of spiritual death and time they received the gospel. During this period they were blinded by Satan and evidence is they HID from God instead of coming to the light because their deeds were evil.

    TIME OF RECEIVING THE GOSPEL: There was the effectual call of Adam and Eve by God when God came to the Garden. There was confrontation of their sin. There was revelation of the gospel in Genes. 3:15.
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Dec 24, 2011
  12. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    That happened at Genesis 3:6. He was spiritually blind at that point in time.
    According to your ridiculous ideas Adam was blind to the gospel at Genesis 3:6 yet he was somehow blinded to it at Genesis 3:15.

    So you have Satan blinding Adam's mind to the gospel at a time when Adam was already blind spiritually.

    Of course you cannot understand that that makes no sense at all. And you still have not answered how Satan could blind Adam to the truth of the gospel since he was already spiritually blind.
     
    #32 Jerry Shugart, Dec 25, 2011
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jerry,

    Don't you understand what I am saying? Satan doesn't do a special work of blindness to the gospel! At the very point one becomes dead in sins they become spiritually BLINDED and DEAF to the things of God including the gospel.

    It is not that Adam spiritually died when he sinned and then LATER when the gospel was preached Satan had to blind him to the gospel - HE WAS ALREADY BLINDED BY SATAN from the point he sinned! Spiritual death involves spiritual blindness to ALL THE THINGS OF GOD (1 Cor. 2:14).
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2011
  14. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Adam and Adam alone was responsible for sinning and as a result becoming spiritually blind. He was not deceived so it cannot be said that Satan blinded him spiritually:

    "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim.2:14).

    The following verse is not in regard to Adam:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From this we can understand that even those who are "lost" and "believe not" have the ability to understand and believe the gospel. If it were not for the fact that their minds have been blinded its light would shine unto them--"lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

    Therefore we can understand that all men have the ability to understand and believe the gospel, even those who do not believe it and remain lost.

    That completely contradicts the Calvinists who say that only some men can believe because God only gives some men the gift of faith.
     
    #34 Jerry Shugart, Dec 26, 2011
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The gospel was not what Adam was deceived about!!! He was not deceived about the eating the fruite!

    He was not blind BEFORE he ate the fruit! He was blinded as a RESULT of eating the fruit.

    He did not obtain the sin nature BEFORE he ate the fruit! He obtained the sin nature WHEN he ate the fruit. Remember the order "death BY sin" not the reverse!!!

    Hence, during the period from the fall, during when he sewed fig leaf aprons, during the time he hid himself from God he was spiritually blinded, spiritual deaf = spiritually dead - his heart was like that described in Deut.29:4.

    The gospel came later in Genesis 3:15 AFTER God gave a particular and effectual call that brought Adam to God.
     
    #35 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2011
  16. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    The simple argument which I am making is the fact that Adam's spiritual blindness cannot be blamed on Satan, as you suggest:
    Adam's sin of eating from the forbidden tree cannot be blamed on Satan because Adam was not deceived:

    "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim.2:14).

    How can you blame Adam's becoming spiritually dead since he sinned with his eyes wide open? The fact of the matter is Satan cannot be said to be the cause of Adam's spiritual blindnessd. Therefore the following verse is not speaking of Adam:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From this we can understand that even those who are "lost" and "believe not" have the ability to understand and believe the gospel. If it were not for the fact that their minds have been blinded its light would shine unto them--"lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

    Therefore we can understand that all men have the ability to understand and believe the gospel, even those who do not believe it and remain lost.

    That completely contradicts the Calvinists who say that only some men can believe because God only gives some men the gift of faith.
     
    #36 Jerry Shugart, Dec 26, 2011
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Whether he sinned with his eyes wide open or was deceived, the consequence of that sin is the same - spiritual death and spiritual death is inclusive of spiritual blindness. The sinful heart is a heart that cannot see, perceive or hear:

    4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

    When Adam sinned, his heart lost its ability to perceive, to see, to hear as he possessed an unregenerated wicked heart.

    The nature of the sin makes no difference to the consequence as the consequence is the same in Eve as it is in Adam - spiritual death - heart fallen from righteousness to depravity - a heart that no longer can perceive, see or hear spiritual things.

    This is true of all lost people is it not even according to your willful sin theory??? Don't you teach that such a heart is the consequence of willful sin?
     
    #37 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2011
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The campaign against Calvin aside, apart from the Holy Spirit...man cannot understand the Gospel.

    All men do not have the ability to understand the Gospel. It is the specific ministry of the Holy Spirit to convict men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. While man can have an intellectual understanding of the facts, only God moves the heart toward saving faith. When He has done so, at this point, man then either receives or rejects...the choice is theirs.

    We cannot deny Satan's part in the choice to reject, but I think it is clear that man does not receive condemnation because of Satan, for it is not Satan's works which man is judged, but it the works of men themselves that are judged. In other words, God will not say, "Because you and Satan have done thus, depart from me."

    Rather, because the individual did, or did not, will they be separated.

    God bless.
     
    #38 Darrell C, Dec 26, 2011
  19. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    You again just IGNORE my argument. You said that satan was responsible for Adam's spiritual blindness:
    Where is the evidence that supports that assertion? and why do you refuse to even attempt to defend your idea against what I said here?:

    Adam's sin of eating from the forbidden tree cannot be blamed on Satan because Adam was not deceived:

    "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim.2:14).

    How can you blame Adam's becoming spiritually dead since he sinned with his eyes wide open? The fact of the matter is Satan cannot be said to be the cause of Adam's spiritual blindnessd. Therefore the following verse is not speaking of Adam:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From this we can understand that even those who are "lost" and "believe not" have the ability to understand and believe the gospel. If it were not for the fact that their minds have been blinded its light would shine unto them--"lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

    Therefore we can understand that all men have the ability to understand and believe the gospel, even those who do not believe it and remain lost.

    That completely contradicts the Calvinists who say that only some men can believe because God only gives some men the gift of faith.
     
    #39 Jerry Shugart, Dec 26, 2011
  20. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    You ignore the fact that the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.
    Of course all men do have the ability to understand the gospel and the verses which you completely IGNORED prove that they do. It is those who "resist the Holy Spirit" who do not believe.

    Let us look at what I said previously and see if you will actually address what I said:

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    From this we can understand that even those who are "lost" and "believe not" have the ability to understand and believe the gospel. If it were not for the fact that their minds have been blinded its light would shine unto them--"lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

    Therefore we can understand that all men have the ability to understand and believe the gospel, even those who do not believe it and remain lost.
     
    #40 Jerry Shugart, Dec 26, 2011
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