Bodily Resurrection

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Mar 25, 2006.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    Wondering what some opinions are of the following questions:

    1) Is the physical body (made from dust) and the soul (breathed by God) divisible and separated at death? Then rejoined later?

    (Ecc 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    2) What is in the grave to be resurrected anyway, dust and soul for the damned and saved alike or is there a difference?

    (Joh 5:28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    (Joh 5:29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    3) The wicked will be consumed out of the earth and be no more (Psalms 104:35) but the saved know to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2Cor 5:8). The saved spirit is present with the Lord so doesn’t this preclude the un-saved spirit is still in the earth?

    4) The resurrection of these dead in Isaiah that shall not rise appear to be in an un-separated and different state than the dead that shall live? A spiritual body resurrection beforehand for only those that shall live?

    (Isa 26:14) They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise : therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

    (Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    5) Is Psalms 104 hitting on the saved spirit being separated from the dust and with Christ but the wicked spirit still in the earth?

    (Psa 104:27) These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

    (Psa 104:28) That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

    (Psa 104:29) Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath , they die, and return to their dust.

    (Psa 104:30) Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created : and thou renewest the face of the earth.

    (Psa 104:31) The glory of the LORD shall endure forever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works.

    (Psa 104:32) He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.

    (Psa 104:33) I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.

    (Psa 104:34) My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the LORD.

    (Psa 104:35) Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth , and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    6) In the end a physical body resurrection for some, all or none?

    [ March 25, 2006, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Benjamin ]
     
  2. Helen

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    Benjamin, I don't think any of us really know the answers to all of this. We are going to have to wait. There is another verse to add to the above, though:

    "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare."
    2 Peter 3:10

    The KJV says 'burned up' instead of 'laid bare' and that was strange so I checked two concordances and found that the translations must have been from two different texts, for two different words are used in the Greek. The KJV word definitely means burned fully, but the NIV word, in the Greek, is "Heurisko". That word means to be found, or discovered, or met, etc.

    At any rate, it does appear that all the elements will be at least changed. This would indicate a 'new physics,' and I think we see this with Jesus' resurrected body, which could pass through doors and walls with ease. Right now we know that atoms are mostly 'space', but we also know that 'space' itself is jammed packed full of tiny little particles called Planck Particle Pairs, which are positively and negatively charged. These appear to be recombining at an enormous rate, and when they have finished, something called the "Zero Point Energy" which is what keeps electrons away from the nuclei of their atoms, will die away and the electrons will go crashing into the nuclei in an instant. This may be what 2 Peter is describing.

    And that WILL require a new creation!

    In which, we will find out what all the references in the Bible have really meant!

    About Psalm 104. Verses 1-5 refer to creation itself. Verses 5-9 refer to Noah's Flood. Verses 10-23 is the world as we know it now. Verses 24-30 are an address of praise to God. Verse 31 is a verse of praise. Verse 32 is a reference to God's ability to bring disaster on the earth (see Psalm 18 and cf to the Tower of Babel, when the Lord 'came down.'). Psalm 104 closes with praise and a looking forward to the time of the new creation when sinners have vanished from the earth and the wicked are no more.
     
  3. Benjamin

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    :D Didn’t really think anybody did but figured a few might try.

    Interesting though that a future physical bodily resurrection seems to be considered an essential faith implied with great importance in creedal declarations of Christianity throughout time and heretical ground to presume otherwise.

    We were created with a body and then our spirit was added to it; I would be inclined to think we will have some kind of body to house our spirit in heaven but don’t really think it will be composed of any earthly dust. Then there is “he that abideth in Me” and “which temple you are” referring to having the body of Christ, but then again there are many mansions in heaven. I find it confusing, maybe I think too much!
     
  4. Marcia

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    The bodily resurrection of Jesus was presented and written about for us to know that we will have the same thing.

    It will be a body of life and not of death -- since God created the world out of nothing and created us, it is not hard for me to believe He can resurrect our same bodies but in some kind of redeemed form that is new even though it's the same body. I don't think we can know or understand how this is done - but we can trust God to do it.
     
  5. CompassionateConservative

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    That's what I seem to get from: 2 Cor. 5:8 (and its context), "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    Phil. 3:20-21a seems to answer this, "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...."

    I Cor. 15:51-54 also, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Luke 16:22-23 seems to indicate otherwise, "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

    (...my post is getting too long...)

    There is a physical body resurrection of the saved and a physical body resurrection of the unsaved. See Rev. 20:13 and its context, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
     
  6. rbell

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    Hope I make sense with this...

    1 Thess 4:
    15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    (man, am I gonna get flamed for this one)...

    I believe that the entity "time" is God's provision for man's understanding of what happens. "Time" is irrelevant to God. He is eternally eternal. Time binds us, but does not constrain God whatsoever.

    When a believer dies, he/she is no longer bound by time as well. Thus, they are the "dead in Christ," who will rise at the last day, yet they are with God...not waiting for God's return, but with Him. We think in terms of temporality and linear processes...however, I think both of the following statements are true:

    (1) The dead in Christ WILL rise at the last day (bodily resurrection of the dead); and yet,
    (2) The dead in Christ are in the presence of God even now ("being absent from the body, and being present with the Lord").
     
  7. Me4Him

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    Adam was made/lived in a Body of dust (flesh) before he sinned, the same body Jesus crucified, is the same body which was resurrected and will "come again", Scripture says we will be "like him".

    Our "corruptable" body must put on the "IN-corruptable", so what does incorruptable mean??

    "Flesh and "BLOOD" can't "inherit" heaven, but flesh and bone can, as Jesus said "touch me" for spirit doesn't have "flesh/bone" as you see me.

    Jesus shed his blood on calvary but was kept alive by "SPIRIT" rather than blood, we also have to shed out blood to "inherit Heaven", and live by the "Spirit", this has a spiritual referrence to "Without the shedding of blood, no remission of sin", and sowing to the spirit.

    A "Glorified Body" is one that "SHINES" from the light of the spirit inside it, much as Jesus did when transfigured.

    Our old body that's kept alive by blood is appointed to die, dust to dust, but in the resurrection, we'll be "like Adam" before he sinned and Jesus after he was resurrected, both in a body of flesh. (dust)

    This is all part of us "Conforming to his image".

    I just hope my new body has all it's "hair, teeth, hearing, vision, able to walk, being like a new born baby "TWICE" is "rough". :eek: :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    1 Corinthians, chapter 15

    35": But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

    "36": Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

    "37": And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

    "38": But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body .


    1 Corinthians, chapter 15

    "42": So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    "43": It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    "44": It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    KJMatt.17
    "4": Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    How on earth could it be a resurrection if it was not the same body but changed from a natural to a spiritual. We don't preach a creation but a resurrection .

    1 Thessalonians, chapter 5
    "23": And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    So we see there is 3 parts to a man, his body, his soul and his spirit.


    Ecclesiastes (Qoheleth), Chapter 12
    7": Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    So the spirit goes back to God whether sinner or saint. I think its talking about the spirit of life itself. (breath of life if you will)


    That leaves two parts:

    Genesis 3 thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    That takes care of the body.


    Now the soul:


    Luke, chapter 16
    "23": And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    This is what I believe!! [​IMG]
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    Soul of the righteous:

    1 Thessalonians, chapter 4
    "14": For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (in Heaven) will God bring with him.
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    Good layout on body, soul and spirit, Brother Bob!

    There is no such thing as soul sleep as many would preach. But there is a rest unto the people of God.
     
  11. Benjamin

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    We have two bodies:

    (1Co 15:40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial : but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    (1Co 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God…at the last trump the dead shall be raised incorruptible…Note the and in the next verse:

    (1Co 15:53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    For example these dead will not rise, they will be destroyed, even their memory.

    (Isa 26:14) They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

    Paul says of our body in three parts that he prays that our “whole” be preserved blameless unto the coming. Yet the spirit goes back to God and dust to dust showing division. It seems some think the body made from dust will be once again but we must be raised in an incorruptible body (immortal-not liable to die and decay which a earthly corruptible body would) we will at some time receive a new body (each his own) so wouldn’t this body be made from the new Earth?; all elements of earth and heaven will be dissolved in the day of His coming; I don’t think our bodies will be made out of the dust from the old earth.
     
  12. Benjamin

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    The rich man and Lazarus were in the Earth but separated by a gulf; Jesus first descended and led the captivity captive, I would presume the ones on the right side of the gulf where Abraham was being “afar off” were in a safe place other than hell. So anyway, the captive where led to …somewhere?…heaven in earth?

    The Word speaks of Jesus descending to the bowels of the earth and leading the captivity captive, could this be freeing the corruptible part of the body to a place were the dead shall live then will rise at His coming-changed in the twinkling of an eye? The great gulf mentioned to which I give thought of separate places in the Earth to preserve our bodies unto His coming.

    Then there is also the place where Jesus ascended to far above all the heavens, preparing us a place. And where is God during the dissolving of the heavens and the earth, but He must be far above, huh? When Jesus returns we must be in Him, His Spirit, and He will create us a new body (putting our spirit-seed in our own new body?) (Psa 104:30) Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created : and thou renewest the face of the earth.
     
  13. Benjamin

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    Another subject about time, but I lean to think God abides in Truth which is His Nature and although He is omnipotent He abides in the truth of time and circumstances and He is also omniscient within the truth which is His Nature and allows arising circumstances of time which is His sovereign choice to do so.

    I also think both are somehow true which leads me back to a division of the body.
     
  14. Benjamin

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    Any idea how this rest comes about?
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    The rest is with Jesus after we die the natural death, where our soul of the righteous will go.

    And the two bodies is:
    We live in a terrestrial body now, which is earthly.

    We will live in a celestial body in the resurrection ( Heavenly body)when this same body will be raised but changed from a natural to a spiritual body. One that cannot die anymore.

    Don't believe He will make us a new body but resurrect this one but changed.

    The potter hath power over the clay to make one vessel unto honor and another one unto dishonor. (In other words take the same lump of clay but mold it over new).
     
  16. Me4Him

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    2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. (by the Spirit)

    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (body) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, (body/born of spiritual seed, not natural seed/flesh) eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (new body)

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    You know I have no problem with the (new body) saying but to be a resurrection it has to be the same body that gets up but with a change.

    Please notice that in the following it says the same (it).

    1 Corinthians, chapter 15

    "40": There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    "41": There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    "42": So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    "43": (it) is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    "44": It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    "45": And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    "46": Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    "47": The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    "48": As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    "49": And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
     
  18. Me4Him

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    Our "old body" is given birth by "flesh/Blood", (Adam seed) our new body (flesh) is given birth by a spiritual seed, Jesus.

    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Our "conforming to his image" makes us "like him".
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Me4Him;
    Oh, I agree that the blood will not be the life of the body (but the Spirit) but surely you agree for it to be a resurrection the (but changed) body has to get up. You do believe that the body of Jesus they put in the tomb is the one that came out don't you? We shall have a body like His most glorious body. (touch Me not for I have not yet accended to the Father).

    In no way could it be a resurrection if it is not your body that went in the grave, that gets up.

    Luke, chapter 24
    "37": But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

    "38": And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

    "39": Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    "40": And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
     
  20. Benjamin

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    I agree.

    (Job 19:26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    (Job 19:27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

    I see here Job says it is “his eyes” and not another. Then the next part of v27 says “though my reins be consumed within me.” Reins meaning an essential organ (interior self) maybe spiritual body? … be consumed within me. Not sure I can grasp this “consumed within me” from the definition of “kalah” in the Strongs, but the “within me” seems to bring the division together somehow don’t you think?

    H3629
    כּליה
    kilyâh
    kil-yaw'
    Feminine of H3627 (only in the plural); a kidney (as an essential organ); figuratively the mind (as the interior self): - kidneys, reins.

    H3615
    כּלה
    kâlâh
    kaw-law'
    A primitive root; to end, whether intransitively (to cease, be finished, perish) or transitively (to complete, prepare, consume): - accomplish, cease, consume (away), determine, destroy (utterly), be (when . . . were) done, (be an) end (of), expire, (cause to) fail, faint, finish, fulfil, X fully, X have, leave (off), long, bring to pass, wholly reap, make clean riddance, spend, quite take away, waste.
     

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