Born again but not justified?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    What is this that I hear that Calvinists just might insist that a regenerate person who has been faithfully obeying God for some time just might not be justified yet?

    What do you think about that?
     
  2. Ben Elohim

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    Would any Calvinists like to comment on this oddity?
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    You will have to tell us what you are talking about if you want someone to comment.
     
  4. Ben Elohim

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    Well, I have run across many Calvinists who claim that it is very possible to be born again and be faithfully obeying God for a lengthy period of time and yet that regenerate person is still not justified before God.

    What do you think about that Pastor Larry?
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    I don't think you have ever run across a calvinist who believes that. I have never in my life heard such a thing. Calvinists, by definitino, don't believe that.
     
  6. lilrabbi

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    Pastor Larry, you are a good moderator. Its fun to read you posts!
     
  7. Ben Elohim

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    Well it seems that Abraham was faithfully obeying God well before he was justified at Genesis 15:6 doesn't it?

    How did that happen PL? Can a totally depraved human being faithfully obey God without being born again?

    Or cannot we believe the Biblical account?

    "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go."

    How was Abraham able to do this when his will was supposedly in bondage?
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I wouldn't grant that. I think he was justified in Gen 12 when he got up and went in obedience to God's command.

    Nope

    Yep, you can believe it.

    It wasn't. He got up and went because of God's work in his heart.
     
  9. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    I wouldn't grant that. I think he was justified in Gen 12 when he got up and went in obedience to God's command. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]So you disagree with the Biblical account that Abraham was justified at Genesis 15:6?
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    No, I disagree with that being the initial point of justification. Wasn't that clear?
     
  11. Ben Elohim

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    So then justification is NOT a one time event but a process as Catholics also teach? Is that right Pastor Larry?
     
  12. Ben Elohim

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    I am curious to see how you will explain this PL,
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    NO, that is silly.
     
  14. Ben Elohim

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    Well PL, you have claimed the Abraham had an "inital justification" at Genesis 12.

    And we see clearly Paul explaining to us in Romans 4 that Abraham was justified at a much later time at Genesis 15:6.

    So is justification a one-time event or not PL? Please clarify your position.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    One time, That is clear. I said nothing different than Paul said or than what I said earlier.
     
  16. Ben Elohim

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    Well Pastor Larry, it seems you need to clear something up here. Since you claim justification is a one time event, and you also claim that Abraham was justified at Genesis 12, what was this justification event at Genesis 15:6 all about?
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    Heb 11:8 agrees with me, that Abraham had faith when he left Ur. Gen 15:6 is a statement of faith. YOU are apparently under the mistaken impression that Gen 15:6 is only related to vv. 1-5. That is the result of a lack of study on your part. 15:6 is a categoric statement that Abraham was "credited as righteous" because of his belief in God. It is not a temporal statement. Justification was not "an event" in 15:6. It is a statement about Abraham's condition before God. (See Ross for starters).

    I am telling you ... Study the Bible and put aside your philosophy and imagination.
     
  18. Ben Elohim

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    Man you are really going out on a limb here to save yourself PL.

    PL: Heb 11:8 agrees with me, that Abraham had faith when he left Ur.

    BE: It agrees with me too. In fact, that was my point.

    PL: Gen 15:6 is a statement of faith

    BE: So nobody was justified at Genesis 15:6 PL? Abraham was simply professing his faith. Is that right PL?

    PL: YOU are apparently under the mistaken impression that Gen 15:6 is only related to vv. 1-5.

    BE: Really PL? You are going to need to explain yourself on that one.

    PL: That is the result of a lack of study on your part. 15:6 is a categoric statement that Abraham was "credited as righteous" because of his belief in God.

    BE: Being reckoned as righteous PL IS justification in Calvinism. Do you wish to deny this now?

    PL: It is a statement about Abraham's condition before God. (See Ross for starters).

    BE: Well you consult Ross and see what he can do for you in this debate with me okay?

    Are you actually trying to claim now that Abraham was not justified at Genesis 15:6 but had been justified all along since Genesis 12?
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    Listen closely and quit messing this up. Gen 15:6 is a general statement of Abraham being justified by faith. He was not justified at Gen 15:6. That is why I said it is not a temporal statement. It is a general statement of Abraham's life of faith. It is a categoric statement. It is not a continuative statement concluding vv. 1-5. I am not sure how to make that any clearer. You seem to have a propensity for missing these simple things.

    Perhaps this will help you clarify your thinking: The "belief" of Gen 15:6 is not the specific content of vv. 1-5. v. 6 is not a continuation of that temporal sequence. Again, get out Ross and look it up.

    My claim (and Hebrews' claim) is that Abraham was justified by faith when he left Ur in Gen 12. It has been that from teh beginning.
     
  20. Ben Elohim

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    PL: Listen closely and quit messing this up. Gen 15:6 is a general statement of Abraham being justified by faith. He was not justified at Gen 15:6.

    BE: Well that pretty much says it all PL.

    I am amazed at the denials that Calvinists will resort to for the sake of their creedal god.

    It seems that Paul completely disagrees with you in Romans 4. Will you come right out and say now that Paul did NOT claim Abraham was justified at Genesis 15:6?
     

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