Born Again-Regeneration-Living Water-Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 7, 2007.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Should all of these be included when describing a person as "saved by faith" both pre-cross and post cross?

    I would like everyone to give me their thoughts on this exposition that I have written. Go through each verse and give me a nod of agreement or a refute and another conclusion for each verse.

    Jhn 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    We see "the gift of God". This we know is "eternal life" (Jhn 4:14, Ro 6:23)

    We also see "living water". This we know is the "Holy Spirit" (Jhn 7:39)

    Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Four facts of this "living water", 1) It is given by Jesus 2) anyone receiving this water shall never thirst 3) this water shall be in the believer 4) this water is a well of everlasting life.

    Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


    Fact; Living Water is the Holy Spirit.

    Fact; Living Water is Everlasting Life.

    Fact; Living Water as described for us in chapters 4 and 7 was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification.

    In light of John 7:38-39 would we not have to conclude that those who died in faith had to wait in Paradise until Jesus was crucified, ressurrected and glorified before they too recieved the promised Living Water/Holy Spirit of Everlasting Life?

    Yes they were "saved", guaranteed the promise of Everlasting Life, but did they receive the actual Living Water/Holy Spirit yet, were they already born-again, or waiting on God's timing and Jesus' glorification? John 7:38-39 is very specific concerning this "Living Water".

    Your thoughts please!

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  2. BobRyan

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    As pertaining to "born again" Christ argues that the New Birth teaching of the OT is well known to OT Bible teachers PRE-Cross!

    This is clear since as Heb 4 states "the GOSPEL was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also"

    But getting back to Christ's argument for the pre-cross OT understanding of the New Birth --


    John 3:9-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

    King James Version (KJV)
    9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
    10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
    9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?' 10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!


    Darby Translation (DARBY)
    9Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!


    Hence we see "insight" into the teaching of the "NEW HEART" that is "CREATED" in the New Birth teaching of the OT in Ps 51 and referenced by Jeremiah as well as Heb 8. "CREATE in me a CLEAN heart and renew a right SPIRIT within me - take not Thy Holy Spirit FROM me"...

    Aparently OT Bible teachers were reading Ps 51 -- hmmm imagine that!
     
    #2 BobRyan, Sep 7, 2007
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  3. BobRyan

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    Those who imagine "no Holy Spirit pre-cross" are in error according to these texts

    Those who imagine "no New birth pre-cross" are in error from John 3 "alone".

    John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

    Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph

    Ezek 3:24 – the Holy Spirit was IN Ezekiel and ON Ezekiel


    Isaiah 63:8-14, HS IN your midst

    Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David just as He does with us today

    Is 59:21 – Holy Spirit was upon them, forever promises of the Holy Spirit

    Hag 2:5 “My Holy Spirit is abiding IN your midst”

    Jer 24:7 “A heart to Know Me”

    John 3 – the Work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth to be known by Jewish Bible Scholars pre-cross.

    But the POST Cross work of the Holy Spirit seen in Acts 1 and 2 and spoken of in Joel 2 -- did not being until the day of Pentecost - Acts 1-2.
     
    #3 BobRyan, Sep 7, 2007
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  4. steaver

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    Opinions are fine brother, we all have them, but what I was asking for was some actual exgesis on the verses I posted showing how they do not say what I concluded them to say.

    Here is an example;

    I said, "We see "the gift of God". This we know is "eternal life" (Jhn 4:14, Ro 6:23)". Now you either agree or refute the statement with another conclusion. Do this for each point and scripture that I referenced for the points I made. Just posting a bunch of other pasages with a personal opinion attached is not helpful nor does it address the OP in any instructive way.



    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
    #4 steaver, Sep 8, 2007
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  5. BobRyan

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    John 3 is not "my opinion"

    Ps 51 is not "my opinion"

    Jer 33 is not "my opinion"

    Arguing that John 4 is scripture and all the texts speaking the subject in a way that does not support your theory are "just opinions" is not a logically sound position.

    My argument is that the "New Heart" of Ps 51 that is "CREATED" in a "take NOT Thy Holy Spirit from me" context SHOWS the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the life of the believer EVEN in the OT.

    My argument is that Christ Himself stated that anyone who is supposed to have a satisfactory understanding of scripture PRE-Cross should already KNOW about the Holy Spirit and the new birth process that takes place at conversion.

    These are beyond dispute.

    But clearly the Acts 1-2 manifestation of gifts and outpouring of the Holy Spirit were post-cross.

    Pretending that this is not blatantly obvious may be "necessary" to the view you are holding -- but how can you blame the objective unbiased reader for "Seeing it anyway"??

    Ps 51
    9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
    10
    Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
    11 Do not cast me away from
    Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
    12
    Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.
    13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And
    sinners will be converted to You.
    14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the
    God of my salvation; Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.


    David speaks of the NEW created heart - the experience of the believer in HIS day where the Holy Spirit is there as he states.

    He also makes the statement about the Law of God - IN the heart that he might not sin against God.

    Ps 119

    11Your word I have treasured in my heart,
    That I may not sin against You
    .

    23Even though princes sit and talk against me,
    Your servant meditates on Your statutes.
    24Your testimonies also are my delight;
    They are my counselors.

    ...
    34Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law
    And keep it with all my heart.


    Jer 31
    31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when
    I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
    32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, [b]My covenant which they broke[/b], although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
    33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" [b
    ]I will put My law within them and on their heart
    I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for [b
    ]they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I [/B]will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

    This is the New Covenant of the NT and it is seen in many places in the OT including Ps 51, in Ps 119 etc. Christ was right to chastise Nicodemus for pretending not to know it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Sep 8, 2007
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  6. BobRyan

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    Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    There is only ONE Gospel "Gal 1:6-11"

    And NO foundation OTHER than Christ is even possible (1Cor 3)

    1 Corinthians 10


    1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
    2 and all were
    baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 and all ate the
    same spiritual food;
    4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for
    they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]


    In John 20 - once again they receive the Holy Spirit

    John 20:22
    And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

    In Acts 1 once again Christ tells them to WAIT for the promised blessing of the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to over-extend scripture so that each time they are given the promise of the Holy Spirit all the PREVIOUS instances are deleted - you are not dealing faithfully with scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Sep 8, 2007
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  7. BobRyan

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    Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    This is GOOD OT pre-cross Doctrine!





    Isaiah 55
    1 ""
    Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
    2 ""Why do you
    spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
    3 ""
    Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.



    Matt 5
    17 ""[
    b]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets[/b]; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
    18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
    not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law[/b] until all is accomplished.
    19 ""[b]
    Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same[/b], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but [b]whoever keeps and teaches them[/b], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
     
    #7 BobRyan, Sep 8, 2007
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  8. steaver

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    I surely do respect your argument, however it lacks addressing the scriptures of the OP and giving an exgesis on those specific scriptures. All you have done is post other scriptures to refute the scriptures that I posted. This does nothing to instruct the believer as to defining the scriptures of the OP.

    You know how it is done here brother. You go done through the OP line for line quoting it and then give either a "amen" or a refute. All I have from you thus far is basically scripture against scripture. If you truly want to refute the OP then you will need to harmonize the scriptures. You have yet to address one line of the OP.

    What you have done is posted other scripture and then gave your opinion on these other scriptures, which I could clearly argue that your opinion is very flawed but that would serve nothing instructive to the OP. The OP verses would get lost (maybe this is your hope, I don't know). This is not good bible verses bad bible and let's pick and choose which bible verses I will address. Let's address them all but since this thread has an OP with bible verses let's be sure to include them and begin with them in the deliberation.

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  9. BobRyan

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    That is only true if you take a slice-and-dice either-or approach to scripture. If you allow scrpture to speak to your topic then it is clear that the Holy Spirit's work that is identified in the OT can not be "spun" to "NO Holy Spirit in the OT".

    You claim that John is arguing that very thing!!

    This is why I have quoted your OP texts from John 4 AND John 7 to show your error and contrast it to the way these texts fit perfectly with all the OTHER pre-cross OT doctrine on that subject.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Steaver said

    Thanks for pointing that out - I see it applies here.

     
  11. steaver

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    OK I believe I see an assumption that I need to clear up. My OP does not suggest that the Holy Spirit did not exist in the OT. I think were you misunderstand is that the Holy Spirit has many functions throughout His eternal existence. In the OT the Spirit came upon men and walked with men, even entered into men at times to carry out God's works with mankind (He even entered into a donkey, I don't think we would say that the donkey is now saved and full of Living Water/Reborn).

    What is being addressed in the OP is the "Living Water/Rebirth" that is defined in John 4 & 7. This is were the Holy Spirit actually indwells the believer as Everlasting Life. It is the earnest or deposit that wells up into a full overflowing of Living Water.

    Our post overlaped there by a minute or so and yes you have now begun to quote the OP. However, "perfectly" is far from the truth of the matter. Like I said, were you are misunderstanding is not rightly dividing the differing works of the Holy Spirit. How He worked in the OT verses how He works in the NT after Jesus' glorification.



    Here again, yes they were drinking real liquid water and eating real solid food that was given by God through Christ. This is a very good symbol of the "Living Water/Holy Spirit" to come and the symbol of the sacrifice that they would spiritually eat in "Jesus Christ".

    Were you error is saying once again they recevied the Holy Spirit/Living Water spoken of in John 7. This obviously cannot be since the scripture is clear that this working of the Holy Sprit was not yet given. One has no choice but to accept that this rebirth is not the one in the same as the work performed by the Holy Spirit pre-glorifcation of Jesus Christ.

    As you clearly point out, Jesus gave the disciples the Living Water/Holy Spirit after His glorification. So does He need to give it to them again? Of course not. What they are to wait for is not the "Living Water/Eternal Life/Holy Spirit Gift" but they are to await the Holy Spirit/Power. Again, the Holy Spirit has many tasks, this is were one needs to rightly divide those works spoken of throughout scripture. Things are not to be just all lumped together as one in the same. There are many blessings of the Holy Spirit and differing works.



    This is GOOD indeed! You have given the OT prophecy of the Living Water to come and as Matt 5 declares Jesus came to fulfill those prophecies.

    What you really need to do some searching on brother is this statement "was not yet given". All you want to do is say "Oh yes it was given at pentecost and everywhere in the OT". These are not my words brother, this is God speaking here. The scripture is specific here and speaking about the "Living Water" and not speaking of every work of the Holy Spirit ever performed.

    It cannot be as you say. There must be a distinction made between "Living Water/Everlasting Life/Holy Spirit in John 4 & 7 and the Holy Spirit/Power of Acts 1 and even all of the Holy Spirit works of the OT.

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  12. steaver

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    ANd thank you! It does apply, it is prophecy (things to come).

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  13. Pastor_Bob

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    The "gift of God," in this passage refers to Jesus Christ Himself (John 3:16).


    The "water" that Jesus speaks of here is more than the Holy Spirit; it is the sum of His teaching and the benefits of receiving the gospel that He is preaching. The graces that a believer receives will be a continual well of refreshing water that dwells within the Christian.

    The "living water" in John 7 is not speaking of everlasting life. John is clear that Jesus is speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit had indeed been given, He simply had not been given like He was to be given after Jesus ascended to heaven. The Old Testament saints had already received the promise of everlasting life. They trusted and believed and it was counted to them as righteousness.

    They did not receive, nor did they need to receive the Holy Spirit. They were saved by believing in the gospel message that courses through the entire Old Testament. The Holy Spirit was given to New Testament saints as a Comforter and guide to all truth. The Holy Spirit was given to indwell the believer after Jesus bodily left this earth.
     
    #13 Pastor_Bob, Sep 8, 2007
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  14. steaver

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    Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  15. steaver

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    Brother BobRyan,

    Do you realize that your model view of the Living Water/Holy Spirit spoken of in John 4 & 7 has the disciples getting reborn three times?

    You conclude they have received the Living Water/Holy Spirit for believing in Jesus pre-cross.

    You conclude they have again received the Living Water/Holy Spirit post-cross in John 20:22.

    You conclude that they receive the Living Water/Holy Spirit a third time at Pentecost.

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  16. steaver

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    Amen! He was also given as a deposit, a seal, a possession of eternal life.

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  17. Pastor_Bob

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    As I stated above, John 7 is not speaking of everlasting life. The passage you quote above is also not speaking directly of everlasting life. He says that it "springs up into everlasting life." It is simply His doctrine which promises the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. Understanding and embracing this doctrine will lead to everlasting life. The living water itself is not "everlasting life."
     
  18. steaver

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    Amen! And Jesus Christ is eternal life!

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     
  19. steaver

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    Deleted because I used the wrong quote/wrong poster in fact and it therefore makes no sense! Goofy me! I will just redo it later.

    God Bless!
     
    #19 steaver, Sep 8, 2007
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  20. steaver

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    Either way you want to look at it brother, it is everlasting life even if it has yet to reach full bloom. A daisy plant is still a daisy plant from birth even until it flowers.

    Does the living water change into everlasting life? The living water is the everlasting life! It is "a well" that will overflow.

    God Bless! :thumbsup:
     

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