Born Again = Saved ?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, May 28, 2007.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    In another thread in this same forum, Straight and Narrow asks : Is it necessary to be born again in order to be saved ? (emphases mine).

    Here are my answers which I cut and copied here to this thread:

    Well, there you have it. And here is John 3:3-7

    Now, bear in mind that there are corollary terms we may also need to investigate such as "kingdom of God", as we discuss this, if you want to discuss this.

    I am not saying at all that mine is the right position.

    I am saying let us investigate.
     
  2. Hope of Glory

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    I think you're certainly on the right track here.

    Notice in John 3:3 that you must be born from above to see the Kingdom.

    But, what does it take to enter the Kingdom a couple of verses later down in John 3:5? You must be born of water and spirit. Something beyond being born from above.

    I've taught for years that John 3:5 teaches "born again", as does 1 Peter, and it was recently shown to me that some manuscripts do have "born again of water and sprit" in John 3:5.

    "Born again" can only happen to a child of God; it's not how one becomes a child of God; that happens when one is born from above.
     
  3. DQuixote

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    Definition, convoluted: involved, knotty, tangled, tortuous, coiled, twisted.

    So far, we have a convoluted thread.

    "Born again" speaks for itself. The only thing needing investigation is how convoluted concepts get born. Oops! I know the answer: it happens in the mind of man*.

    *Did you hear the one about the gunperson who fired shots in a crowded theatre?
     
  4. Hope of Glory

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    Definition: chaos - a state of utter confusion or disorder.

    Results when people take diparate doctrines and try to blend them all together and say "works don't mean works" and "although the body distinguishes betwee the soul and the spirit, they're really the same thing."

    The only thing needing investigation is how these chaotic concepts get started.

    My Bible says that God is not the author of confusion. He wrote it precisely as he meant it.

    So, the minds of men looking for the easy way out have messed them all together.

    Did you hear about the club wielding thug who shot someone in a theater?
     
  5. StraightAndNarrow

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    They are the same thing.

    e. Born again: The ancient Greek word translated again (anothen) can be also translated "from above." This is the sense in which John used this word in John 3:31 and in John 19:11 and 19:23. Either way, the meaning is essentially the same. To be born from above is to be born again.
     
  6. Bro. James Reed

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    Well, we can try to dissect all of these topics if we like, but I will say emphatically that we will not receive one without the other coming in too.

    I am a firm believer that Chirst accomplished salvation for his people on the cross at Calvary, so then, we are saved. And, in fact, as far as God is concerned, we were saved before the world began when He made the covenant with Christ. So, we had salvation before we were yet born.

    However, we will, undoubtedly, at some time, from conception to death, be regenerated (born again). No person will ever get into eternal heaven without having been born again.

    That rebirth is when the new creature is born in this dead alien sinner, and it's when God places His Spirit within us. We were saved in the mind and foreknowledge of God prior to then, but that salvation wasn't physically fixed in us until that new spirit was given us in regeneration.

    And, before anyone says different, regeneration is not the same as conversion. The re-birth gives us the ability to see, conversion is when we finally do. I do not believe that all those who are regenerated will be converted as well. At least, not in this life.
     
  7. StraightAndNarrow

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    What do you mean by "At least, not in this life?" We have only one chance for salvation and that's in this life. I also have a problem with saying we are first "saved in the mind" and then later the rest of us is saved. Also, I don't agree that someone can be regenerated without being saved. Whether they can then lose their salvation at a later time is a matter for discussion.
     
  8. Bro. James Reed

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    When I said "in this life", I was speaking of conversion.

    Not everyone will come to know the real truths of the gospel here in this life, but all will be revealed in Glory.

    We can look at all of us here on the BB and see that. Hardly any of us agree on any given subject, so someone has to be wrong. We'll all understand it all eventually, just not in this life.

    That's all I meant.

    As far as the "saved in the mind" part, I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not talking about our mind being saved. I'm talking about us being saved in God's mind. Since He is all-knowing, He knows everyone for whom Christ died and all who will one day be born again. So, as far as God goes, He already sees us as being saved, through His own mind, yet we are "physically" saved(I use that word loosely...I don't really mean our physical bodies, but I'm not sure what word to use..perhaps, "in real time" would give a better picture of my point) when God gives us His Spirit in regeneration. Basically, my point there is that when salvation occurs to us in this life.

    In case you're wondering, this is a pretty difficult subect for me to explain. It seems plainly understood in my own mind, but trying to find the right words to explain it to others is presenting me a problem. For me, this is about on par with "Explain the Trinity", fairly easy to understand in our own minds, but trying to explain to someone else how 3 can be 1 and 3 at the same time, all agreeing, yet with distinct minds can present a problem.

    Clear as mud?
     
  9. Bro. James Reed

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    I agree as well. There is no such thing as an unsaved, regenerated person. That would make no sense.

    The subject at hand is asking whether one must be regenerated in order to be saved, not must one be saved in order to be regenerated.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    They have a hard time figuring out the subject, eh, Brother Reed ?

    And I suppose most of these guys probably have a DD or ThD before their name.

    Oh, well....
     
  11. Hope of Glory

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    Interesting, isn't it? It happens in all sorts of debates, but this is a perfect example. I have to wonder whether it's intentional or not because it's glaringly obvious that it's a twist.

    In this example, I have stated that only a saved person can be born again (regenerated). But, when one is saved, one is born from above.

    That gets twisted around to, "So, you're saying an unsaved person can be regenerated?"
     
  12. Hope of Glory

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    OK, so you think that "born from above" and "regenerated" are exactly the same thing, even though they are completely different terms.

    We see in John 3:3 that one must be born from above to see the Kingdom.

    What does one have to do to enter the Kingdom?
     
  13. Accountable

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    Great comment! To enter one must be born of water and the spirit.

    For those who are looking at this, remember that to see and to enter are two totally different verbs with two totally different movements.

    Thank you for this point H.O.G.
     
  14. Accountable

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    We are to study to shew ourselves aproved. Not to just simply read something and assume it needs no further study. One will never understand John 3 unless he is willing to study.
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    Jesus is saying here that "born again" to see the Kingdom of God and "born of the water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God are one and he same.

    John 3:
    3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    Bro. Bob,
    I have heard people say that being born of "water" refers to the physical birth, but I wonder if "water" in this verse is talking about the cleansing from sin, which is pictured in baptism. What do you think?
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    It is not talking about the natural water but Spiritual water.
    "whosoever is athrist" let him come and take of the water of life freely.

    All the natural water does is to "answer a good conscious towards God" (sp). You have to have a good conscious before you can answer one.
     
    #17 Brother Bob, May 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2007
  18. Amy.G

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    So, what does it mean to be "born" of water?
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Jhn 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    Being born again, that is what Jesus was saying "born of the water and the Spirit" also "born again", same thing.

    That is how you are "born again" is by the Spirit and the Spiritual water.

    Yes, it means to be cleansed of your sins.

    John 3:
    3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Jesus told we must be "born again", then He went on to tell us what it was, "to be born of the water (Spiritual) and of the Spirit. Yes, it cleanses us from sin, and makes us alive in Christ Jesus, raised to walk a newness of life. Puts the mind of Christ in us and the Holy Ghost.
     
    #19 Brother Bob, May 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2007
  20. Bro. James Reed

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    Simple question:

    Were we saved by Christ on the cross?
     

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