Born Dead

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Sep 5, 2011.

  1. Van

    Van
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    This concept teaches we are conceived in a separated from God state. United with God we are “alive” and separated from God we are “dead.” When Adam sinned and was corrupted, he was separated from God. Thus all in Adam are separated from God and therefore dead at conception. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ.

    Now lets look at some arguments against the doctrine that as a consequence of Adam’s sin, mankind is conceived in a spiritually dead, separated from God state, and are conceived corrupted with the “old man” nature, referring to Adam’s nature after his eyes were opened.

    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    If we are born dead in sins, how could Paul say he was ever alive once? And how could he die if he was born dead?

    This verse is certainly difficult with differing views presented in commentaries. I believe Paul was saying he thought he was alive, not knowing that he was condemned, but when he became aware of the requirement of perfection, he “died” in that he became aware he was dead. This view is supported contextually with Romans 7:13. The law did not become death, but sin was shown to be death through the Law. Sin becoming utterly sinful speaks to awareness because sin is always utterly sinful from God’s perspective.

    In summary, Romans 7:9 does not teach we were alive at conception, but rather we did not know we were dead. This view is consistent with being conceived in iniquity, and therefore separated from God.

    In the parable of the prodigal son, the illustration starts with the son being together with the Father, hence alive, then he chooses to sin and leaves the Father, becoming separated and hence dead, and then he returns to the Father on his own power, becoming alive again. Now can we say that everyone starts out alive or does everyone start out condemned already according to John 3:18? We start out condemned, and separated because if we were together with Christ we would be alive and not condemned.

    I agree we can establish doctrine supported by parables but we must be careful not to take the illustration past its purpose. In this parable, the son starts out alive, but since this facet of the story does not mesh with all the verses that say because of Adam, we start out “in Adam” and not “in Christ, that part of the stories’ detail does not override all the verses presenting that we are conceived in iniquity.

    The other two illustrations of Luke 15, the lost sheep and the lost coin, tell the story of something belonging to the owner. Who is our owner? God. But because of the consequence of the Fall of Adam, mankind is conceived in a separated state, hence lost. When someone is united with Christ, they are recovered, found, redeemed, transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God. Next note that the 99 sheep are not really united with the Father, for they are in need of repentance. So the lost sheep actually represents a lost person who repents, which is consistent with being condemned already. The 10 coin parable makes the same point, the “owner” rejoices over the recovery of the one who repents.

    In summary, both Romans 7 and Luke 15 are consistent with the Fall.

    Next lets consider 1 Peter 2:25. The people in view, were continually straying which refers to the fact they were continually sinning. A lost separated person can continue to sin and store up wrath for himself or herself. The word returned might better be translated turn back, which describes a person who is going the wrong way, i.e. sinning, and then turning back toward the One who leads them in paths of righteousness. So again, no actual support for denial of the consequence of the Fall.

    Everyone is created by God, and therefore everyone is a “child of God” in the sense that God is our creator. But to say these children of God cannot be condemned and be children of wrath makes no sense. Next, God chose the nation of Israel to be His people, so in another sense, the children of the promise were “children of God.” And now, under the New Covenant, all those chosen by God and spiritually placed in Christ are born anew, becoming “children of God” in the third sense. So when we see the phrase, children of God, or sons of God, we must look to the context to see which of the three ways the phrase is being used.

    As far as 1 Corinthians 15:22, the death referred to with “in Adam all die” is the second death at the judgment. Those in Adam have not been made alive, thus they are spiritually dead already and will suffer the second death.

    Bottom line: The Bible clearly teaches that as a consequence of Adam's sin, the many were made sinners. They are not being punished for Adam's sin, but Adam's sin had consequences and so mankind is conceived in a separated from God, spiritually dead sinful state predisposed to sin because of the "old man" nature.
     
    #1 Van, Sep 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2011
  2. percho

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    I agree with this. The angel with flaming sword keeps man separated from God through sin, separated until reconciliation is made for the calling of God. Reconciliation was for all mankind and the calling of God is according to his purpose.
     
  3. freeatlast

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    Van I believe that is a reasonable explanation. The only thing I differ with is you understanding of the prodigal son, but that is off topic so I will leave it there.
     
  4. JesusFan

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    "Bottom line" "bad news" is that God considers ALL of us as being "IN Adam" all received the same punishment for sinning against God, in that we ALl are born into Sin, have sinful natures born and bent away from God...

    Being wreaked and killed off by the fall, we are ALL born apart from God, DUE to us being spiritual dead to God, died in our spirits, sinners by nature and by choice!

    The "Great News" is that jesus died to pay the price that those chosen by God might and do receive eternal Life and pardon for their sins, with a new nature now bent after God!
     
  5. webdog

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    Surely the Holy Spirit could have inspired Paul to say that he "perceived" to have died in Romans 7:9 instead of stating emphatically "I died".

    Being conceived dead is an oxymoron as death is the ENDING of life. Impossible to be created in such a state as with creation comes life.
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    Good point Webdog, but it still, in my view anyway, remains possible Paul was simply using hyperpole to emphase his point that the Law made his aware he was not alive, but dead.
    Paul may have been inspired to present this message through a study of the context of the passage; in other words it is not hard understand the message this way.
     
  7. mandym

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    So it is your position that we are born without sin and have no need of redemption?
     
  8. convicted1

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    I agree with you 100% Brother!!! I have tried to get this point across, and no one will accept it, because I(we) have proven it with scriptures galore.

    Where there is no law, there is no transgression. Blessed is the man unto whom God will not impute sin.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Okay Brother Van, I have a question for you. Where does the soul of mankind come from? Answer that correctly and ask yourself how it can be born dead.
     
  10. 12strings

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    To the "We are not born dead" supporters:

    Would you please clarify your position:

    1. Are you saying that humans are born without sin?

    2. What then, is the reason that 100% of humans sin?

    3. If you position is correct, then what in the world is Romans 5 talking about?
     
  11. convicted1

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    1.) At conception, the body is formed with the same matter that formed Adam(dirt). Since Adam's fall, God cursed the ground, therefore, we have corruptible bodies that will die, because the curse(sin) of the ground, is what are bodies consist of. This is what is meant when it says we are conceived in sin. At conception, the sperm fertilizes the egg, and the growth process starts. God forms this body as it please Him, and places the soul in that conceived body. The soul comes from God, and it is dead in sin from the time He creates it??? If that be the case, then that makes God the Author of sin. Only when God shows us where our sinning(works of the flesh), has taken us, then, and only then, does He remove His Grace from them. This is what Paul was referencing to when he stated he was alive without the Law once. But, then the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. To die, one must have life to begin with.

    2.) The curse that God placed on the ground causes us to have a sinful flesh nature, or sin nature. Because of Adam's transgression, God placed the curse there(ground), and those who are made like Adam(from the ground), will die because of this sin nature. But the believer will live forever with God in heaven.

    3.)Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    In this verse, Paul is stating that because of Adam's sinning in the Garden, that all will die. Whether we be Saint or sinner, we will die. That is all of us, because we are made of the cursed ground. The Saints will never taste eternal death, but have passed from death unto life through the blood of the Lamb.


    I hope this doesn't muddy the water. If you need any clarification, please ask me, and I will try to do better!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  12. 12strings

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    1. Is there scripture to support this description of conception and soul-infusion. I would be more likely to think that Just as the body is passed on from generation to generation, so the soul too is reproduced from our parents. I think you may be separating our being too much between the spiritual and the physical.

    2. If we have a "sinful flesh nature" than this would have to be in our spiritual selves too, not just in our physical body. You really addressed more the question of why we die.

    3. v.12 speaks of the consequence (death), but you have not addressed v. 19: "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners". This verse says that because Adam sinned, I was made to be a sinner. Maybe not fair, I say, but there it is.
     
  13. convicted1

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    Ecc. 12:7 states that the spirit(soul) goes back to God who gave it. I can find nowhere that I am aware of where it shows that both soul and body come from the union of sperm-egg.


    EZE. 18:4 and 18:20 says the soul that sinneth, it shall die. To die, there has to be life prior to death. Something dead can not die.

    Does a baby sin? Yes. From birth? That's a different question. What sin does a baby committ? When a baby is born, it only knows when its hungary, needs a diaper change, burped, etc. As it ages, it becomes knowledgeable of sinning. An infant lies to keep from getting in trouble, but isn't aware of the consequences of that sin, and God does not impute sin unto them at that time. When they become aware of sinning in the sight of God, and God convicts them of it, then He imputes sin unto them. Until that time, they are under God's Grace, and in that Grace, is Christ's blood.
     
  14. Aaron

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    So, everyone is born saved, they lose that salvation, then they're saved again. So, is it that Christ isn't able to keep them from falling, or that He just isn't willing to keep them from falling?
     
  15. webdog

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    Born without being a sinner. We are still born under the curse and WILL sin.
    See above...the curse.
    The curse, death specifically.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    What happened to Adam? He was created perfect and in perfect relationship with God. He sinned and was separated from God. God redeemed (bought back) Adam with the blood of an animal (until the coming of Christ).


    If we are born dead and separated from God, then we never belonged to God in the first place. So how can we be redeemed (bought back) if we never belonged to God?

    At some point each of us belonged to God and then sinned and separated ourselves from Him, requiring redemption. Otherwise redemption has no meaning.
     
  17. JesusFan

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    Problem with that is that the Bible does NOT teach that!

    per Apostle Paul...

    We ALL died in Adam, as the pronouncement of God per curse/judgement on Adam was to all humans after him also, as we are linked with Adam...

    Born with both physical/spiritual death, inheriting his sin nature and away from God!

    That is in the Bible!
     
  18. 12strings

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    -It is not incongruous to say that God both gives us a soul, and that our soul and its spiritual state is passed down from our parents. Just as we would be right to say "God gives all men life." But the way he does it is by 2 parents having a child.

    -These verses are clearly at least in part referring to physical death, and I would argue that that is probably the primary meaning to the people of Israel.
    The Spiritual death spoken of in Eph. 2 is something different.

    -I know for a fact that my baby knowingly and willfully disobeyed me before he was one year old. It was not the same kind of awareness of sin that an adult has, but he looked me in the eye did the thing He knew was "NO NO."
    What causes him to do that other than an inborn tendancy to sin?
     
  19. webdog

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    I disagree. There is plenty of concrete passages in Scripture that state when we sin, we die.

    We all die spiritually due to sinning, not due to being human. The curse and death entered creation due to Adam's transgression, THAT is what Paul taught.

    That is what you read into the Bible.
     
  20. webdog

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    The context is dealing with righteousness (v. 3-9), hence it must be understood as spiritual death, not physical. The righteous still die.
    One, how do you, and how CAN you know what a baby under one year old knows?!? Second, IF you are correct, do you believe the baby understood they were violating God's law (what the Bible defines sin as)?

    Just what you describe, the "inborn tendancy to sin", also referred to as the sin nature. Having a sin nature does not make one a sinner, sinning makes one a sinner. People can desire to molest children, and have a strong urge and push to do this heinous act, but they are not molesters until they commit the act.
     
    #20 webdog, Sep 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2011

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