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Born of God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Oct 15, 2008.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    We have been discussing in another thread, which is closed now, the timing of the Holy Spirit's ministry of regeneration. Whether being born again has been something performed ever since Adam and Eve fell or if it is a new thing only implemented after Jesus' glorification.

    Under question is Jhn 7:38-39;

    Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    I have always believed that the giving of "living water" was the indwellement of the Holy Spirit through rebirth.

    Mark brought up a passage to refute this belief;

    Gal 4:29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

    I have done a little initial research on this, but thought the list could dig into it and give a good analysis since my time is limited.

    Is being born of the Spirit the same as being born after the Spirit?

    My preliminary findings are suggesting that this phrase "born after the Spirit" is speaking of the promise made by God to give Sarah a child which all nations shall be blessed through. One child was through the flesh, after man's plan, and the other was through a promise, after God's plan.

    Does this mean Isaac was "born again", indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God through regeneration at conception even before he was born of the flesh?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    :thumbs:
     
    #1 steaver, Oct 15, 2008
  2. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    Well, Steaver you went and "juiced" it up a little by saying at conception and even before he was born of the flesh, when scripture does not say that. I don't know when he was born of the Spirit, but he for sure at one time was born of the flesh, or he would not be here. Even Christ was born of the flesh, but concieved by the Holy Ghost.

    The last part of Gal 4:29 puts that to rest, for his birth of the Spirit was even as it is now.
    And of course we were not filled with the Holy Ghost before our fleshly birth.

    :thumbs:
     
    #2 mark1, Oct 15, 2008
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  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Steaver:
    "Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    I have always believed that the giving of "living water" was the indwellement of the Holy Spirit through rebirth.

    Mark brought up a passage to refute this belief;

    Gal 4:29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now."

    GE:
    Steaver, in my opinion your first conviction was right; hold fast to it, it is God's saving grace!

    Galatians simply means "according to", or, "to the promptings of", and the whole expression means just it, and no more except that it is a way to emphasize what is said. The one born of the flesh - the reference is not to the fact a person had been born sometime in the past -- Paul does not concern himself with such things. He concerns himself with 'reprobate', over against 'the elect of God'.

    The man "born after flesh" is utterly 'fleshly' or sinful; he lives and loves "after the flesh".


    The one "born after the Spirit": If "after the flesh" implies the desire and lust according to the promptings of the heart of the unregenrate man, then "born after the Spirit" implies the desire and purpose according to the will of the regenerating Spirit!
     
    #3 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 15, 2008
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  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    In Galatians 4:29 it is, "born according to" --- 'kata sarka'.

    In John 7:39, it is, "He spoke of the Spirit", meaning "with reference to" --- "peri tou pneymatos". 'Peri' often in other contexts of the same nature as here, can be rendered with 'over'; Jesus spoke "over / about the Spirit".

    John 3:6, "He that is born of the flesh is flesh (or fleshly, i.e., naturally prone to sin; sinful); he that is born of the Spirit is spirit (or spiritual, i.e., naturally desiring not to sin; righteous).

    Here we have 'ek tou pneumatos'. And it says, "Ek tou pneymatos pneyma estin"! That is "He that is born of the Spirit / out of the Spirit by the Spirit, is alive!"

    He that is born of the flesh is DEAD in sin; he that is born "Of / out of / by the (Holy) Spirit, truly and eternally "has eternal LIFE", as Jesus said, "He who has the Son, has eternal Life" -- that is, Christ is his part and that man's part is in Christ, praise God: FOR EVER!
     
    #4 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 15, 2008
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Was Adam born of God.
    If he was created of God, then he must have been in a sense "born of God," not physically of course, but figuratively speaking just as we are born of God in a spiritual sense. He was God's child. He even walked and talked with God in the cool of the evening. Some take that to be very literal.
    Then the fall happened. Some believe that Adam lost his salvation. I don't believe that to be the case. Adam lost his fellowship with God. He needed to be brought back into a right relationship with God, because of his sin. One sin does not condemn a person to hell.
    What happened. God killed an animal, blood was shed, and the sin forgiven on the basis of that blood. Adam was a child of God, always was a child of God, died being a child of God. One might say that he was "born into the family of God," such as we are "born again" into the family of God."
     
    #5 DHK, Oct 15, 2008
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    DHK:
    "Some believe that Adam lost his salvation. I don't believe that to be the case. Adam lost his fellowship with God. He needed to be brought back into a right relationship with God, because of his sin.
    What happened. God killed an animal, blood was shed, and the sin forgiven on the basis of that blood. Adam was a child of God, always was a child of God, died being a child of God."

    GE:
    "Some believe that Adam lost his salvation. I don't believe that to be the case. Adam lost his fellowship with God. He needed to be brought back into a right relationship with God, because of his sin." 100%!



    "One sin does not condemn a person to hell."

    GE:
    No! it does, and it did, in Adam's case. "If you eat ... you shall surely die!" was God's own Word - His Law of: Sin --- and --- Die! or 'Law of sin and death'. That Law as Himself, Christ in Himself, annulled by having given His Life in our stead --- 'in our stead' included Adam.

    You say it yourself: "What happened. God killed an animal, blood was shed, and the sin forgiven on the basis of that blood. ...."

    "In one man all died" in one man one sin had the "strength" of death -- 1Cor15:56: It had the Law behind it! God - in Christ - is the strength of the Law!
     
    #6 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 15, 2008
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  7. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    This statement is just plain wrong!

    Hbr 11:23

    ​

    By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw [he was] a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.


    It is a shame that some will say that salvation did not start until around 33AD:

    Gen 49:18

    I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
    Exd 15:2

    The LORD [is] my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he [is] my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
    Psa 25:5

    Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou [art] the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.
    Psa 37:39

    But the salvation of the righteous [is] of the LORD: [he is] their strength in the time of trouble.
    Psa 51:12

    Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.
    Gal 4:29

    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

    What ever Isaac got, its the same as we have, according to Paul.
    Being "born again" means being born again of what?

    1Pe 1:23

    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    How long has the word of God been around?
     
    #7 mark1, Oct 15, 2008
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  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    mark1:
    "Paul does not concern himself with such things. He concerns himself with 'reprobate', over against 'the elect of God'. This statement is just plain wrong!

    Hbr 11:23

    By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw [he was] a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

    It is a shame that some will say that salvation did not start until around 33AD: ..."

    GE:
    Ag please! You test my patience to the limit! One bad reason to answer you!

    Adam was saved. Those saved in the days of Noah were saved; and so on through all ages. And they were all"baptised (saved) in the cloud; and the cloud was Christ" --- who in 30 AD (to my knowledge) died and rose again unto the salvation of all and everyone EVER saved by the Grace of God, through Faith --- NO One ever "of himself --- it is the GIFT of God".

    mark1:
    "1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    How long has the word of God been around?    "

    GE:
    John 1:1a.
     
    #8 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 15, 2008
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  9. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    Trying patience?

    Na, just stirring up the "pure" mind :godisgood:

    All who died in "faith believing" from Adam to Christ, died looking forward to the cross. Was there a chance the cross would not come? "no way".

    All those who have died since the cross, died in "faith believing" looking back to the cross. Is there a chance the cross never happened? "no way".

    They and we all received our white robes from the cross, through the "blood" of Christ.:thumbs:
     
    #9 mark1, Oct 15, 2008
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:
    To this, I can and will add just one word: AMEN! and PRAISE GOD!
     
    #10 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 16, 2008
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    No Mark. It does not say "for the birth of the Spirit was even as it is now". "Even as it is now" is speaking of those born after the Spirit being persecuted by those born after the flesh.

    What we need to find understanding for is the phrase "born after the Spirit". I am not convinced (yet) that it is declaring "born of God" (regeneration).
     
    #11 steaver, Oct 16, 2008
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I don't think we should say "in a sense". We are not "born of God" in a "sense", it is totally real. Spirit quickens spirit to life and indwells the very person. There is nothing "figuratively" about it.

    This phrase "born of God" is very important. It is what Jesus came to preach and it is what Jesus said MUST happen to a person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven (God).

    With "born of God" being such an important MUST HAPPEN I am surprised that most seem to be flippit about it (not saying you are DHK) but there isn't much response to this subject when brought up on these threads.

    From what I have studied on this subject, this regenerating ministry was not present in the OT. This does not suggest those having faith in the true God could not be "saved". As i said many times, the Jews don't use the term "saved". It is not an OT term. We apply it to the OT saints and throw it around as though they had received the rebirth just like believers do today but that simply is not declared that way in the scriptures.

    David looked forward to the rebirth, we look backwards to the moment we were reborn. David also has received his new heart and newly created spirit now that Jesus has been glorified and has led captivity captive. No one entered heaven until Jesus was glorified, they were held in Paradise until Jesus fulfilled all things written of Him.

    I here alot of speculations on this subject, I even asked my former pastor about it, and he is a stickler for sticking to thus sayeth the Lord, and he did not have much of an answer except "they must have been". Commentaries don't seem to help much either. Some suggest they were regenerated (always opinion without actual proof text to support what they say) and some suggest they were not because the indwellment of the Holy Spirit did not happen yet.

    Why would there be a divide on this issue? Why would we not go by what sayeth the scripture without any "feelings" involved?
     
    #12 steaver, Oct 16, 2008
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  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Why is so hard to understand that all who died in faith believing from Adam to Christ, died looking forward to regeneration?

    You are distorting the word of God. A lost man can bellow out the word of God, Any TV evangelist come to mind?

    The word of God defines "living water" perfectly clear as to being "everlasting life" (Jhn 4). Therefore the only Holy Spirit ministry in focus here is the Holy Spirit's ministry of giving the gift of eternal life, which is the Spirit of Christ in you (regeneration). Which was not yet given until after Jesus was glorified.

    It would not be the preaching of the word of God that is in focus in Jhn 7:38-39. This was already being done at this time by none other than God Himself in the flesh, Jesus. Pentecost was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit's power to go and preach the Kingdom of God. This, of course, would then produce over and over the living water of regeneration.

    :jesus:
     
    #13 steaver, Oct 16, 2008
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:
    One could write a book against what you say here, Steaver, and in fact a myriad of books have been written against it by brilliant men of brains and character.

    It's now 1 am where I live, and I'm rather tired, but would like to respond to your theories properly. so for now, just give it a thought it may be you are the one with "a lot of speculations on this subject".

    I shall have to copy paste and enlarge the print of your post on MSW in order to work on it. If you don't mind, use larger letters, please.
     
    #14 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 16, 2008
  15. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    Mark: Right and where is this living water coming from. It is coming from the word, which if you are called of God, through the Spirit, you preach to the world.


    1Cr 9:18
    ​
    What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
    Rom 1:16
    ​
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    :godisgood:
     
    #15 mark1, Oct 16, 2008
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  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Meaning that whether you be Jew or Gentile faith in Jesus Christ is what imputes the righteousness of God to the person. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    Again, nothing said here about "born again".

    The distortion is saying the "living water" Jesus spoke of is the preaching of the word. This is flat out wrong because the very word tells us what it is, "everlasting life" (Jhn 4:14). The word also tells us it is the Holy Spirit given to you (Jhn 7:38-39). So it is the Holy Spirit indwellment of everlasting life.

    Amen! Christ the Word told the woman at the well to ask and receive the "living water" (which was not yet given) Christ the Word was given for she was looking right at Him.

    Do you believe all Christians preach the word?

    1Cr 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?

    Paul is not ashamed and preaches the gospel. He is also an Apostle. Are you an Apostle also Mark?

    I have used scripture to define the "living water". I must stick with the scripture and reject your spin on it.

    :jesus:
     
    #16 steaver, Oct 17, 2008
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Well Praise God! This is why I started the thread. Please teach on brother!

    Earlier you told me I was on the right track about the living water rebirth. I am here for answers, just don't give me any "well, they must have been born again".

    Show me from the scriptures how the Holy Spirit living water (which I see as regeneration) was given before Jesus' glorification even though the scripture (Jhn 7:38-39) says it wasn't.

    :jesus:
     
    #17 steaver, Oct 17, 2008
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    To anyone,

    Tell me why David asked God to create a new heart in him if David already was born again?

    Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

    Tell me why Jesus told Peter he was yet to be converted?

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
     
    #18 steaver, Oct 17, 2008
  19. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    Peter had the "faith", he needed to be converted that the Gentiles had a right to be saved also.

    Act 10:15And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
     
    #19 mark1, Oct 17, 2008
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  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Of course Peter had faith, this is not the issue. We are debating "regeneration" or "conversion".

    "converted that the Gentiles had a right to be saved"

    You are quite the spin master indeed! You wish to place the word "converted" into the area of Acts 10?

    Let's see how it is used throughout the scriptures and apply it accordingly.

    "converted" is used 7 times in the KJV New Testament as follows;

    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

    Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Each and every time "converted" is speaking of having a bad heart healed, sins being forgiven and entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Yet you wish to take a leap over to Peter having a vision from heaven about eating all meats and accepting the Gentiles as believers in Christ.

    I must reject your understanding of this and stick with how the word is used consistantly throughout all of scripture.

    You totally missed this one. The question was concerning the Kingdom. Jesus chose to answer the question concerning the Kingdom by telling them they must be converted to even enter the Kingdom, let alone worry about who was the greatest.

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Except ye be converted, ye shall not enter. Peter, when thou art converted, streghthen thy brethern.

    Consistency! :thumbs:
     
    #20 steaver, Oct 17, 2008
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