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Featured Born of water?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    what are those 'waters of seperation?"

    think DHK is right, this is a reference to the word of God being used by the Spirit of God to produce the new birth!
     
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  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Nicodemus didn't have to know what Peter wrote. The question is: What would Nicodemus be thinking about when Jesus said to him: "You must be born of water and of the Spirit."
    Water cleanses.
    Over and over again he had cleansed his hands in waters of purification.
    The OT taught this concept.
    The OT also taught that the Word cleanses us.
    I believe that Nicodemus could have put these two concepts together rather easily. He knew that water wouldn't wash away his sin.

    Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

    But it is the Word that cleanses us.
    Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    19 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

    2 This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

    3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face:

    4 And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times:

    5 And one shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn:

    6 And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast it into the midst of the burning of the heifer.

    7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even.

    8 And he that burneth her shall wash his clothes in water, and bathe his flesh in water, and shall be unclean until the even.

    9 And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin.

    10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    So for someone to ask, "What must I do to be born again," is as Mama would have said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,

    But flesh with the life (soul) thereof, the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; ) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    But if the Spirit of him (the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (the Father's) Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his (the Father's) Son, that he (the Son) might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



    Did he include the Son of Man in being born of water and of Spirit?
     
  6. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Ezekiel 36:25-26

    I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I would say Nick@nite would have recalled this.
     
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "What must I do to be born?"
     
    #67 kyredneck, Apr 17, 2013
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This makes no sense, you are not comprehending:

    v. 3 Born again from above (BAFA) = ability to SEE the kingdom

    v. 5 Born of water and Spirit = ability to ENTER the kingdom

    vv. 7 & 8 BAFA = born of the Spirit (the two are synonymous)

    The most pertinent question here is, 'What is the kingdom of God'?
     
    #68 kyredneck, Apr 17, 2013
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  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Amen brother, we had as much to do with the first as we have to do with the second.

    We become as little children.
     
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    The first man Adam

    But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him.

    But now we see not yet all things put under him. Heb 2:5-8 Man.

    Jesus of Nazareth the only begotten of the Father. John 1:18
    The firstborn from the dead. Col. 1:18

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

    Crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom all things, and by whom all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:9,10

    So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another, Thou a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Heb. 5:5,6

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Heb. 5:8-10

    A Son born of the water and the blood and a Son born from the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness. Rom. 1:3,4
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus said: "Art thou a rabbi in Israel and understandest not these things"?
    He may have connected the water to cleansing as I have pointed out.
    But to go all the way to regeneration in one step would be quite a jump for his understanding at that time.
     
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  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  13. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Even if it was a jump for his understanding, which I am not conceding, Jesus' statement to Nicodemus was not and cannot be "Go make yourself born-again." The verb isn't an imperative. It's passive. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that something must be done to him [Nicodemus] first.

    He cannot wash himself, but he must be washed. He must be cleansed, but he cannot cleanse himself. The washing, the cleansing, which is the language of regeneration, must be done to Nicodemus, and it's done by God.

    The Archangel
     
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  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Rev. 1:5
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor.1:3

    And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor. 15:17

    What allows the blood of Jesus to wash away out sins?

    He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration.

    Was it the regeneration of Jesus, his being the firstborn from,/first begotten of, the dead, by which his blood removed the sins of the elect from them?

    When the elect are conformed to the image of God's Son and the Son becomes the firstborn of many brethren not the same moment spoken of in Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.?

    Is to be children of the resurrection not the same moment of following him in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory?


    I believe that will be God doing it all.
     
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Would the Leopards be healed if they did not do what Jesus told them to do.They were not healed by the water but by His word. We should do what Jesus tells us to do because Jesus will do what He say's He will do. We are already clean by His word not by what we have done so do it.

    Faith without action is dead. To trust in God is not a work only men make it one by believing it is. Trusting in God is trusting in His work.
     
    #75 psalms109:31, Apr 17, 2013
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  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Nicodemus heard some wonderful truths that day, but he did not leave the Sanhedrin. There is no evidence that he was saved immediately, but rather more evidence that he was saved some time later on.
    Therefore I am not going to waste my time debating on whether it is a command or "something that must be done to him," for if I am right that fact now becomes irrelevant.

    What is relevant is that we all agree that salvation is all of God.
    If I am correct even a Calvinist (unless he is a hyper Calvinist) believes that at some time a person must trust Christ as his Savior. Without faith he cannot be saved.
    Another thing that we can probably agree on is that regardless of the order of regeneration and salvation, they are almost simultaneous so that order, in the end, really doesn't matter. It is not a long drawn out process. Regeneration does not take weeks or months. It is virtually at the same time as salvation.

    It is likely that Nicodemus gained more light about salvation after his first encounter with Christ. (Even in this age there are not many that are saved the first time they hear the gospel). Sometime before the death of Christ we see enough evidence in the life of Nicodemus to assume that he is saved. He is there with Joseph risking his life in taking care of the body of Jesus. Before that time he is acting like a "secret believer."

    Nicodemus was saved. Where and when we are not told.
    He did have to put faith in Christ.
    Where you and I disagree is the source of that faith, among other things.
    God doesn't give faith, a fruit of the Spirit, and what was considered a spiritual gift, to unregenerated men. I believe such a concept is absurd. It is man that must believe. Abraham believed God and therefore righteousness was imputed unto him. It was Abraham's faith, not God's.
     
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It is not a command, and cannot be. Also, it is the very crux of the issue of soteriology whether man initiates and God responds or God initiates and man responds.

    The grammar here is simple: The verb is passive. Being born again is not and cannot be something we do--it is something God must do to us.

    This passage, quite clearly, in fact, demonstrates that God initiates.

    However, you are correct in one thing--there is no evidence that Nicodemus believed immediately.

    A person must trust Christ, yes. That is a person must respond to Christ in repentance and faith. Trusting Christ is the evidence of regeneration, not the prerequisite thereof.

    No. Not at all.

    At some point, yes, Nicodemus responded to Christ in repentance and faith. We don't know when that was.

    The presuppositional problem you are having here is that you are equating regeneration with salvation.

    And, since you brought Abraham into it, you are forgetting that when God called Abram in Genesis 12, he was, according to Joshua, an idol worshiper. God began working in his life, promising him astonishing things, before his faith was counted as righteousness.

    The Archangel
     
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  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We don't know what God promised Abraham. As far as we know God called him out of the Ur of Chaldees, and most likely when he was still living there. That was long before he was promised anything.
     
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  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Seriously?!

    Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:1-3, ESV)

    We know what God promised Abraham: "I will make of you a great nation and make your name great..."

    That promise was made when Abram was in Haran.

    After the promise was made, Abram left Haran: So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. (Genesis 12:4, ESV)

    The promise was part of the call--and all this while Abram was an idol worshiper and long before the text says his faith was counted as righteousness.

    The Archangel
     
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  20. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." Nope....he should have known as the Lord implied.
     
    #80 Jedi Knight, Apr 17, 2013
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