Born Sinful.

OK! Let't do it your way! WE APPOINT YOU TO BE THE EXECUTIONER! NOW Carry out your Job....Execute them crying babies!

 

Actually Bro. Dallas a better scripture would be Psalms 58:3... The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Then there is another favorite of mine Psalms 51:5... I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my Mother conceive me.

One question... Before a person is born again is he numbered among the wicked?... Another thing to consider if a child has no sin then he doesn't need a savior since he is sinless... Then sin isn't a condition it is an act!... The condition brings about the act... Then again it is a double edged sword... A baby is still a SINNER and the word of God says so!... Btw no matter how you slice it you are either sinful or sinless... Raise your cursors please... Babies to... Who on here is sinless?... Bro. Dallas you have another brother who stands by you!... I agree with you other brethren according to scripture to disagree! ... Brother Glen

 

I'm Not convinced that David was an authority on sin, he knew how to do it obviously, But it takes more than quoting him to convince me of his authority. He was a master at prose however, excelling at lyrics. So to base your doctrine on the Psalms is like putting your treasure in a leaky boat and setting sail on the high seas.

 

children do not need to prove their sin nature. they contain it within their spirit.

Being physically born in total depravity immediately denotes a need of an outside intervention.

cause Mankind cannot save itself. no one.

before anyone can know of Gods intentions towards mankind. man must first abdicate his humanistic reasonings of superiority overagainst Gods sovereignty.

each individual must recognize Gods supreme sovereignty over his creation to be an adopted child in Gods family.

Anyone saved (vessel of mercy) must Accept Jesus Christ as LORD with the evidence of his spirit within the professing believer.

which means any totally depraved baby born must be called first, taught of the Holy Spirit, purged and sanctified in their lifetime to be "saved" (vessel of mercy)

God uses fully mature souls tried by fire.
as one must understand what is mercy in order to offer it to others.

 

Is the infant totally depraved?

FALSE statement Me2. The scriptures reveal in black and white what God's intentions towards mankind are, and all one needs to know them is a 6th grade level of reading comprehension.

You really should stop posting such outragious trash!

 

Yelsew2, said "So to base your doctrine on the Psalms is like putting your treasure in a leaky boat and setting sail on the high seas."

To me yelsew2 this is an attack on the Word of God. There are no leaks in God's Word. Man is the defect, not God or His Word.

by His Grace
mike

 

Being born a sinner is due to the bad seed of Adam

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

When did they sin?.

They were born with a sin nature.
They were born from the same “bad” seed of Adam.
They were born spiritually disconnected from God.

***

Excuse Me Yelsew2, Your reasonings are established from your denial of accepting Gods plans.

which is the essence of humanism and rebellion.
It is Adam's sin.


God makes two sorts of ethical vessels out of one common clay of humanity.

Each type of vessel has its respective destiny.

The vessels have NO SAY in the matter.

They cannot legitimately reply to the Creator, "Why have you made me thus? And since you have, how can you legitimately hold me responsible for my ethical acts and my eternal destiny?” (rom 9:19-20)

Why not? Yelsew2

Because God is the sovereign Creator.

"Free will" of man is a false belief.

Man is born under bondage without free will and IF GOD CALLS THEM. they still dont have free will within Gods plans.

Me2

 

Would you accept the same statements as holy if they came from your Governor?

How about your from your President? Your President Has a strong Belief in the Same God that David believed in.

Oh, you say, 'but the bible... '

 

Thank you brother Glenn for the scripture and the standing beside me. It is good to be able to stand with brethren in the word of God.

I agree also that if babies are sinless until committing a 'first sin' then they are not in need of a savior.

Good to see you around. Thanks for the article in the history forum.

Bro. Dallas

 

OK! Let't do it your way! WE APPOINT YOU TO BE THE EXECUTIONER! NOW Carry out your Job....Execute them crying babies! </font>[/QUOTE]What are you talking about?

 

Yelsew2, surely you understand that David was a prophet? He was under the inspiration of God. He was also anointed king of Israel by God, comparing him to a governor or a president is invalid; these men are political figures. David was not; even though he had been anointed by Samuel to the throne of Israel as God's choice, he refused to take the life of Saul even when he had the opportunity. No, such a comparison is one of the flesh only and ignoring the spiritual differences.

Bro. Dallas

 

So, you are saying that infants are totally depraved? And that there is no way whatever that they can be saved even though they have not sinned?

I say that in the new covenant, Sin is not a factor, because ALL the sins of ALL times have been atoned for, and that includes infants. So that evacuates the power of your Total Depravity theory.

Since faith is the Condition of man that makes him acceptable to God, it seems none have more faith than a totally helpless infant. So then Jesus words, "except ye come as a little child" means that we are to come in faith!

Consider that by the atonement all infants are covered and therefore any sins they may be capable of are already paid for and not a factor in their salvation.

 

Wrong. Infants are not simply covered. And I did not say there was no way they could be saved, you said I said that, but I did not.

1. Infants dying in infancy are regenerated just like everyone else, by the wind that bloweth where it listeth and ye know not whither it go or whence it came (paraphrase). That is by the Holy Spirit.

2. So, since you believe infants are born with only a propensity to sin, but not sinners because they have yet to sin and because sin is not a factor in the salvation of anyone, then no infant is in need of covering (which btw is what the atonement is depending on the usage it is a covering being definite or particular, it is able to receive action as to being put on and it is showing the need for something to be covered. I believe Ex. 29 and 33 and the usages of 'atonement' there with a concordance will render this truth to you) since infants are born sinless, they have no need of the covering, no need to be covered, nor is there anything to cover.

Believers are made accepted in Christ Jesus, this is the only accepting that the Bible ever talks about. What you hear daily passing among men as the gospel begging folks to accept the Lord is not found in scripture. If so, then Jesus missed a good opportunity to use that tactic on Nicodemus, the rich young ruler, the woman of Samaria at the well etc....

If you are going to talk so much about the atonement learn what it is.

According to how it is used in the Hebrew scripture; then learn the NT usage according to the Greek is really a reconciliation and not atonement.

The atonement of Christ proves there is need by every individual for a covering because of their spiritual nakedness, that there is a provision made that man cannot make but provided by God, that is a covering that is everpresent, as represented by the nakedness of Adam, the covering of skins provided by God, replacing the fig leaves Adam had sewn together, in these there is found a seam, in the covering of skins God provided there is no mention of a seem, therefore no possibility of it failing or being rent even by the wearer.

I could on this all nite

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew... The only thing I can say is OH BROTHER!... Brother... You have not changed one iota since I left this board and returned... I felt by now some of Brother Dallas would have rubbed off on you!... Attacking David a friend of God... I will take the words of David which by the way is the Word Of God over yours any day of the week... There I have had my say and it sure felt good!... Come hell or high water you know what I believe!... Brother Glen

 

You say that atonement is reconciliation?

I say that atonement is Enablement, and FAITH is reconciliation.

Atonement does not get one to heaven, it only enables one to get to heaven through faith by eliminating the penalty of sin so that one can have everlasting life through belief in Jesus Christ! The Crist is the one who died for us so that we do not have to die for our own sins. However, Everlasting life (salvation) comes through faith, and FAITH ALONE!

 

Like a tree planted by the waters, I shall not be moved!

Thanks for the acknowledgement Brother Glen!

 

That also was what I had in mind by mentioning crying. It can be either legitimate or deceptive.

True, but as I was showing, there is a difference between the legal definition of sin ("they have the condition; they do the acts; therefore they are judged/charged as sinners"), and the definition based on knowledge. Babies cannot understand "sin", "repentance", or "faith" (even the adult person who has never heard the Gospel has a conscince and knows right and wrong), and of course, for the unborn this is altogether moot. Of course, for those who insist in taking Romans 9 out of its context, and making "vessels of wrath and mercy" predetermined eternal states the person has no control over, then yes, the stillborn, young infants, are charged with "sin", (because God, in His "sovereignty" only wants to charge people with sin anyway) and will go to both Heaven and Hell based on which "vessel" they were (whether that "sin" was paid for).

Well, I have in mind children who die, or are stillborn. The argument is that they can be condemned to Hell just because of their legal standing as "sinners", but the conscientious definition of "sin" would suggest otherwise. Calvinists who focus on the legal standing only, but still say such would not be condemned must offer better explanation of why the law of vessesl/elect & nonelect does not extend to them.

If this statement means that elect & nonelect extends to the infants and unborn, then you have the issue of salvation without faith. But that is a debate here among the Calvinists themselves.

Then, the debate continues as to whether they "are" or "are not" sinners, or whether they are no by virtue of all sin being paid for by Christ, etc. They are sinners, whose sins need to be paid for and covered, legally, but in an infant or unborn state, they do not have the knowledge that brings judgment. They do not "know to do right". they cannot have "faith".

 

Eric b,

who has cosigned these babies to hell?

for it is appointed man to die (spiritually) and be judged.

dont confuse physical death with spiritual death here. one must first be delivered into spiritual death. and that requires being killed by thw Law of God. the law is every spirits schoolmaster. A problem we neglect to observe is that we must agree with God to be judged. If the law "convicts us" (causes us to agree or disagree with God) we must conclude we deserve death to be delivered unto death. we must accept the fact that we are guilty

no baby who cannot complete Gods training of being a vessel of mercy is not selected as a vessel of mercy. have you ever seen a newborn persecuted?

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

"condemned with the world" means those among the numbers in the second resurrection.
"sons of God" are judged in this life, while all others (the world) are judged in the second resurrection.

NO baby or unborn can be a member of the elect.

because everyones a sinner. everyone dies, and everyones judged. whether in this life or the second resurrection..including those not capable of understanding, not capable of comprehending or just plain rebellious.

 

Yelsew2, if sin is eliminated, then there is no sin of unbelief, or else Christ did not die to atone for this sin and the way to heaven is established to be something other than Christ's atonement.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Bro. Dallas,
Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sins, he did not stop man from sinning! Man continues to sin to his own detriment.

Sin is eliminated in the sense that it is not a factor in man's salvation which is by FAITH ALONE!