Born Sinful.

But do you believe that unbelief, or lack of faith is a sin? If so, then it too was either atoned, or was not atoned.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew2.. You crack me up!... Even an earthquake couldn't move you! ... Brother Glen

 

But you ignore the scriptures I gave showing that the other definition of sin. You are focusing entirely on the legal definition, and yes, what you said would be the logical conclusion of it, though most other Calvinists do not say that the unborn are automatically lost.

 

Eric b.,

Ive also heard that calvinist as well as primative baptists state that God elects babies and children.
thats ridiculous. It is an emotional excuse made up by those who believe their babies and unborn are doomed at birth or shortly thereafter..
much like the age of accountability. its nonsense.

Original sin is a legal fact without any escape,
other than God calling and the believer proceed
through the stages of sanctification.

What is the legal requirements of "being saved"?.
believe that Jesus Christ is Lord with evidence of acknowledging his spirit within.

this is a long process that includes growing in knowledge, accompanied by trials of faith and being persecuted by the world, flesh and devil..

God just doesnt snap his finger and an unborn becomes an instant human with thoughts, memories and experiences. nor does he choose someone to be a vessel of mercy that is going to die before bearing fruit.

everyone who proceeds through sanctification bares
evidence of fruit as all others.
through trials and tribulations.
its not an instant event.
its a lifetime of experiences.

Me2

 

NO Unbelief (lack of faith) is not a sin, it is not a deed, it is not a work.

Unbelief is a condition of the human spirit in the same manner that Belief is a condition of the Human Spirit.

Belief and Unbelief are motivators, not the result of motivation.

 

But you just said on another thread that after believing an individual can fall away by sinning repeatedly until they no longer believe. Therefore, as you state babies are born sinless, with only a propensity to sin, these are believers until having committed sin. Or else, they and believers must commit that which is already atoned for, and therefore not relevant to the discussion in order to be found in unbelief...but in all of this you conclude unbelief to not be a sin. This so you can support your man with no life in order to show two things:

1. All sin is atoned for and has no eternal power to condemn.
2. Unbelief is not a sin, but man is lead into unbelief by sinning, and unbelief is the only cause for condemnation. And don't forget the icing on your dead man's cake...unbelief is not a sin, but a product of sin, this means of course...oops, catch that fellow there, he is falling over...that unbelief is begotten out of that which Christ has removed...after all sin is not relevant...uh, Yelsew2, if I am going to talk to this fellow, please tell him to look at me...

 

No, they believe like you that the people are condemned to Hell just for being conceived as a person. They only extend unconditional election to some of them, which would make sense since to them, both salvation and condemnation are totally not of works. You, however, add a whole new set of criteria for salvation:

So in other words, salvation IS by works after all, only you credit God with the works. Just think about it real good: who can be saved in your system? Only someone who lives to a ripe old age of "trials and tribulations" and growth? Only someone with a complete "lifetime" of bearing fruit? If one dies at any time, how do you know they have fulfilled that requirement and have not come up yet short? This is yet another loophole that actually destroys any real assurance.

 

Why do you insist on twisting what I say? I have never said that babies are believers, but they are sinless until they sin, then they become sinners in need of being "born again"! If they become believers, then they are instructed by the Word of God to repent from sinning, and thereby strive for perfection in the Christ! If, once they are believers, they refuse to repent continuing in sin, it will not be long before God turns them over to their own reprobate mind, allowing them to continue sinning and eventually they stop believing there even is a God.

No one knows what has been atoned for until they become believers! Once one becomes a believer, but continues to sin, it is the continuance in sin that can, and often does, cause them to forget (lose) their belief. When they lose their faith, they become reprobate in the eyes of God, and God will not save those who have no faith!

Unbelief is not a sin, it is a condition of the human spirit, in the same manner that Belief is a condition of the human spirit. The human spirit operates from its belief system. If it believes in God, it will control the actions of the flesh to conform to God's will. If it believes not in God, it will conform to that which it does believe in. So belief itself is not a sin, but what comes from the belief could very well be a sin.

1: "All sin is atoned..." What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the act of adultery? Where are your accusers? She responded, 'they are gone' Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn thee, Go and sin no more". Jesus did not condemn her for sinning! That foreshadows atonement! He had the power to have her destroyed, but in keeping with his mission in life, He withheld the wrath of God from her by not condemning her. Atonement does the same for us all, it removes the wrath of God from us so that, "Through our FAITH" we can have Everlasting life.

2. "Unbelief is not a sin,..." You twist again! The Christ's atonement did not remove sin from mankind! He removed the penalty of sin from mankind! Keep it straight this time will you? If sin had been removed, there would be no sin for the past 2000 years, but we have witnessed it in our own selves that sin is an ever present danger regardless of our belief system. HOWEVER, God in his mercy (grace) has not seen fit to mete out his justice upon sinning mankind, but there is a judgment! It is appointed unto man once to die (natural death) then the judgment! All mankind will be judged, first for the deeds we did while in the natural life, and then whether or not we are believers. If we are believers, we do not face the second death, but pass from the first death into eternal life with Christ! If we are not believers, we are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

So Scriptures tell us that we cannot "earn" salvation through works that we do. Sins are works, or deeds, and are judged in all mankind, but not for eternal destiny.

Scriptures tell us that Jesus atoned for all sins for all times, that is, he paid the penalty that we all deserve. Since he paid the penalty we do not have that penalty to pay. So sins are not a factor in our salvation, and sins do not necessarily get us cast into the lake of fire. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

With works not a factor and sins not a factor, WHAT saves us? FAITH and FAITH ONLY! For by God's grace, are YE saved thru FAITH, and not of yourselves, Salvation is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyman should boast.

I have not said that unbelief is a product of sin, but rather that when a believer falls into sin, ignoring the Holy Spirit's conviction of that sin, it is not long before other sins are also likewise ignored, and eventually the believer through the avenue of sin loses his belief through "ignore-ance". He loses his believer's zest for the things of God in favor of sinning. That is called "FALLING AWAY" in scripture.

Now its your turn!

 

Originally posted by Yelsew2:

1: "All sin is atoned..." What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the act of adultery? Where are your accusers? She responded, 'they are gone' Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn thee, Go and sin no more". Jesus did not condemn her for sinning! That foreshadows atonement! He had the power to have her destroyed, but in keeping with his mission in life, He withheld the wrath of God from her by not condemning her. Atonement does the same for us all, it removes the wrath of God from us so that, "Through our FAITH" we can have Everlasting life.

Yelsew2, I have decided to answer this first point of yours as briefly as possible but I desire to deal with it in its entire scope. Let me say you are right, Jesus surely did say woman where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?(vs.10) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Let us consider the chapter in its entirety and not make an attempt to say that our Lord did not fulfill the Law of which he must certainly have fulfilled or else he could not have been the Lamb of God.

Let us keep in our minds the words fo vss.10-11 above.

John 8.1-11

vs. 1-2: Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Jesus is in the temple here, this is very significant showing the location of the action which we will encounter later in vs. 10-11.

vss. 3-4: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

here is the motive of the scribes (these were copyists of the law, transcribers) and the Pharisees, the most strict of the sects that were among the Jews according to what is recorded relating to them in the scripture and by historians as well, but this strictness applied only to outsiders among these men is found a self-righteousness that I do not believe is rivaled today, at least not among Gentiles, no Gentile knows the entire law of God and these men rejoiced in their memory of and upholding of the law. Remember this action: They set her in the midst, remember also against who this action is performed her and remember the charge made against her after setting her in the midst, They say unto him Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

In the next vs. these self righteous men inform the Lord of the law of Moses concerning this situation

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayeth thou ?

vs. 6 informs us explicitly of their motives: This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

What did the Lord write?
Did he doodle in the sand?
Did he write in relation to the law?
We don't know do we? But what can we know, if we search the scriptures? let us go on further:

vs. 7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

What is he referring to? The nature of these men that is depraved or prone to sin? Or are they guilty of something even more near to the immediate context?

vs. 8: And again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
Again, what could he have been writing???

Now, vs. 9: And they which heard it, being convicted in their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Then we come to the last two passages directly related to your point. but first why did these men go out one by one? beginning at the eldest? going to the last? What happened in each man? Now, really consider this because it brings us down to one question and how we answer that question is very important.

Did Jesus merely forgive this woman's sin of adultery? or did he enforce the law of Moses?

Now while your thinking of that I will add vss.10 & 11: When Jesus has lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said no man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus did not condemn her in this situation, but did he say she was innocent? Did he say she was without sin? He acknowledged her sin because he told her to sin no more.

We see:
The setting: the temple
The accusers-scribes and pharisees
The Lord
the adulterous woman (singular)
the bringing of her before the Lord and putting her in the midst
the accusation of her sin and affirmation of her guilt against the Law in the presence of the Law Giver
the motive to find occassion in him to accuse him
Jesus reaction--almost unconcerned, scribbling in the dust.
When they pushed him into answering them toward his sentence under the law of Moses he simply said He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

These men could not for two reasons:
His words convicted them, but there was a reason his words convicted them and this is deeper than simply they had sins or the sin nature though that was probably true.

What was it about this that caused Jesus to refuse to act according to the Law but still prevented the accusers of this woman to continue in the pursuit of their attempt to bring fault against him?

could it be their twisting of the law?
what does the law say?

Remember the woman is brought alone, accused of a sin that is not committed alone.
Remember Jesus said woman where are thine accusers (plural) but says, hath no man condemned thee the charges could not be made against her as they stood, there was no man standing with her as charged.

She did not answer no men but no man Lord, see the singularity?

OK, Here is the Law that Christ upheld and the scribes and Pharisees broke trying to find reason to accuse Christ.

Leviticus 20.10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

The accusers failed to bring the adulterer only bringing the woman.
They could not bring this charge against her unless and without they broke the law, thereby sinning against the very law itself.
There was no "man" to stand with her in the charge, therefore there was no man (an adulterer) to thereby condemn her.

So, then we see that Christ didn't simply overlook this woman's sin; but he did uphold the letter of the Law. If he had spoken against this woman he would have broken the law.

This scripture is not really about eternal life; it is about the Lamb of God standing as a man to fulfill the law of God and thereby working a righteousness that is ours by grace through faith.

Being loosed from the law, but not from sin, we must depend upon his faithfulness to raise up those who come to him, and to bring them with him. Fulfillment of both of these promises are the word of God, if either of these fail, then the word of God is a lie. Only Christ has fulfilled the law that you wish to be bound to, let his grace cut your binding cords and strenthen your spirit for greater blessings ahead.

I pray the Lord will richly bless you in your life and service with Him.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

I appreciate the lesson you offer on John 8:1-11 and do not argue with that. However, it is what Jesus did that is akin to Atonement. The point is the Atonement removes the penalty of sin! And since it is a one time, never to be repeated, atonement; and since it is for the sins of the world, meaning all sins of all times from the foundation of the world forward, therefore sins are not a factor in salvation. They are in truth judged in the same judgment that good works are judged. That is a judgment not against the person but against or of the deeds.

Believers are not judged (John 3:18) Unbelievers are judged by their own unbelief. Salvation is by FAITH alone!

You need not be concerned about my bindings, I know my relationship with God, and it is not in jeopardy!

 

EricB.,

I agree with God Law that He must cosign them to spiritual death. There is no exit to this under mans strength. this curse is upon every human born of adam. That’s 100’s of billions.

This put religious people in dire straits as they scramble to excuse Gods holy decree on each and every participant of his creation. Everyone is treated equally. We spiritually die, we are judged.

I sin., I ask God to forgive me. Believing that he will.

So, Do I Try to stop the sin from occuring again? If I do, is this work due to MY strength.?

A true work of God is to believe that Christ will teach me why the sin is wrong.

The lesson is to differentiate error from truth. The work of christ is to present in my life truth that can cover over error (right-eousness.covering unright-eousness). The entire work of christ is to teach me the knowledge of Good and evil. I have to accept this truth by doing nothing to impede its delivery into my reality. I can not add to it nor subtract from it. I simply accept it as truth.

Does the sin stop? Hopefully., Yet the sin uncovers the opportunity to grow in the knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ. the knowledge arrives. The right attitude is created before the opportunity to sin occurs.
My choice changes. The impulses towards sinning changes.


Frogman, did you overlook the only one rightful to accuse the woman before the law and also the only rightful one to cast the first stone...
The husband of the adulteress.
apparently he wasnt there.

she sinned against her husband.


Me2

 

Where do you come up with the bogus number?

If all the people who ever lived were living today on the face of the earth, the total number would be less that 12 billion. There is but 6 billion alive today, and population experts estimate that 6 billion to be slightly more than half of the whole of all people who ever lived.

 

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Gen 32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, ;which cannot be numbered for multitude.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


apparently even God throws around bogus numbers.

cmon..no man could count?

 

Me2, right on, say it, preach it – for there is only ONE who is worthy to count them and there is nothing bogus about HIM!

All nations (or is it all kinds of nations), and all kindreds (or is it all kinds of kindreds) and all people, (or is it all kinds of people) and all tongues (or is it all kinds of tongues) STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE – before the LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD WERE LAID. Clothed with white robes and palms in their hands (you mean they didn’t have to DO ANYTHING?) That’s impossible – but then ALL things are possible with God.!!!!

This group of ALL KINDS of people will give Him all kinds of praise. All means all. No matter how you slice it. ALL GLORY PRAISE AND HONOR TO HIM. Nothing less is acceptable.

“I will praise You among the nations, O Lord, I will sing praises to Your Name.” Psalm 18:49

I WILL EVER SING THY PRAISES

Words by Walter C. Smit

I will ever sing Thy praises,
Mighty God and gracious King;
Loud my heart its tribute raises,
And to Thee my psalms I sing;
Thou art King of all creation,
Every land and every nation;
“Thousand, thousand thanks to Thee,
Mighty God,” my song shall be!

All the people shall proclaim Thee,
Sing Thy praise from shore to shore;
Every human heart shall name Thee,
God and King forevermore;
On Thy throne in heaven vaulted,
In Thy majesty exalted,
“Thousand, thousand thanks to Thee,
Mighty God,” my song shall be!

When at last my feet have found Thee,
When at last I am Thy own;
When the ransomed hosts surround Thee,
On Thy great eternal throne;
When in yonder land of glory
Angels tell redemption’s story,
“Thousand, thousand thanks to Thee,
Mighty God,” my song shall be!

Oh friends, HE will restore all creation - every last bit of it. May we see His mighty splendor.

 

It ain't over yet, but if all who ever lived were alive today, you would not be able to count them. You'd have great difficulty counting 100 million let alone 12 Billion. Besides, have you ever attempted to count the grains of sand on a beach? What about counting the sand in a one gallon pail of sand? Count the Stars that are visable in the desert night sky? That's a most formidible task that the greatest team of astronomers has not been able to do.

The scriptures you post are figurative speech at best, illustrative of a great number! At the time they were written, 1 million was a great number, beyond one's imagination. Even the Revelation passage is figurative, because if the number were known, man would be trying to manipulate it to suit his own theology, as you are with these figurative numbers.

 

Where did that great a number of people get the palms? There aren't that many palm trees in the whole world. Besides, they would not be able to get that which is corruptable into heaven. Just as human flesh is corruptable and cannot enter heaven, palm fronds are likewise corruptable. So heaven must be a south seas island where palm trees grow! Some even say that Florida is heaven...but you know how that goes.

 

Yelsew2,
I am not worried about your relationship being in jeopardy. It is just good to be free indeed.

Bro. Dallas

 

I was never free when constrained by "church doctrine", regardless of denomination.

I am completely free now with the Holy Word of God and the guiding light of the HOLY SPIRIT!

 

Where did that great a number of people get the palms? There aren't that many palm trees in the whole world. Besides, they would not be able to get that which is corruptable into heaven. Just as human flesh is corruptable and cannot enter heaven, palm fronds are likewise corruptable. So heaven must be a south seas island where palm trees grow! Some even say that Florida is heaven...but you know how that goes. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Yelsew2 (have you multiplied yourself?)

You wrote:

Where did that great a number of people get the palms? There aren't that many palm trees in the whole world. Besides, they would not be able to get that which is corruptable into heaven. Just as human flesh is corruptable and cannot enter heaven, palm fronds are likewise corruptable.

I reply:

Palm fronds are also a apart of creation – which, dear brother, will be restored and made anew in God’s timing. C.S. Lewis succinctly defined a miracle as "an interference with nature by a supernatural power." You do believe in miracles don’t you? Why don’t you ask Him how He’s going to hand out those palm fronds? Maybe He’ll tweak His nose and voila – palm fronds for everyone. I don’t mean to sound flippant cause I’m dead serious here. Can you envision a joyful God surrounded by a creation redeemed to the uttermost by Himself.

You wrote:

So heaven must be a south seas island where palm trees grow! Some even say that Florida is heaven...but you know how that goes.

I reply:

Hahahaha, that’s a good one, Yelsew2. Thanks for the laugh. Heaven is wherever He is and that’s everywhere. Even if I make my bed in hell – He’s there with me. Thank you Jesus! I thank thee and I praise thee.

GH

PS: Got a question for you. Why would The Lord God Almighty by the counsel of His own will devise a plan for the redemption of all creation and hand it over to you or me to carry it out? Let’s face it brother, we’re but a wisp of smoke that the wind will blow away. Only the One, the Christ can do it. Ask God to stretch that faith of yours that you’re always talking about. He can do MORE than you could ever ask or imagine.

 

Yelsew2,

the GWT judgement will be a representative theocracy. as will be the Lake of fire and brimstone.

1, 24, 144k, countless

Christ is the head and the sons of God, the body. they are one.
Luk 19:12-27 is a good parable whereas reign is distributed to the individual sons..in the GWT judgement over those from the 2nd resurrection.

that includes all sin filled babies too.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Me2