Bought versus Redeemed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    But false teachers also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought (agorazo) them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Pet. 2:1.

    What does it mean that the Master had bought the false teachers? I believe the Master refers to God the Father who provided reconciliation to all mankind from the bondage of their sinful separated from God state with the blood of the Lamb. Christ paid the price and God accepted the price. But what was bought? Propitiation. Christ became our mercy seat, and through Him, we can obtain the righteousness of God. Since by the sin of the One, Adam, the many, all mankind, were made sinners, imprisoned in our separated from God unholy state, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross bought us, all mankind, out of that bondage. We no longer must remain separated from God, because our sins can be washed away by the blood of Jesus.

    Paul put it this way in Colossians 2, “He [God] made you alive together with Him [Christ] [referring to our redemption in Christ], having forgiven us all our transgression [violations of God’s Law].” And how did God accomplish this setting aside the record of our transgressions?

    God blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances, which said because we are unholy sinners we must remain separated from God and be punished. God took it out of the way, when He nailed Christ to the cross. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

    Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus mankind was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed.

    The best way to illustrate being bought yet not set apart in Christ is to consider the purchase of an “oil lease.” When the “master” buys an oil lease, he has the right to extract the oil or not, he can leave the oil in the ground forever. So the false teacher of 2 Peter 2:1 was bought but not extracted, he was, so to speak, left in the ground. When any oil is extracted, they are set apart in Christ, transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.

    Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, purchased the oil lease on mankind, but only those extracted through faith in Christ are redeemed.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman
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    "When the “master” buys an oil lease, he has the right to extract the oil or not, he can leave the oil in the ground forever."

    According to the view you have posted often on the BB (to use your illustration) the oil can just claw out of the ground under its own volition, freely pipe itself to the refinery, jump into the fire and determine what grade to be refined.

    But according to your illustration given in this OP, the purchase, extraction, and refining are all under the authority and volition of God.

    Have you changed your view?

    Or by your last statement, "Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, purchased the oil lease on mankind, but only those extracted through faith in Christ are redeemed," are you implying that the oil has volition of itself to determine to be extracted and refined?
     
  3. Winman

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    I like my Super Bowl ticket analogy better;

    Suppose I bought a Super Bowl ticket for every member of BB and posted a thread that if any member will PM me their address, I will mail their free ticket to them.

    Those who believe and send a PM to me shall receive their free Super Bowl ticket.

    Those who do not believe my promise, or have no interest in it and do not PM me their address do not receive a free ticket although it has already been purchased for them.
     
  4. agedman

    agedman
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    But this isn't even close to the illustration that Van used.

    It assumes a position that Van's illustration does not. Van's illustration is using oil which has no life in itself and actually no self volition. Yours assumes that the oil has volition and self determination.


    Therefore your illustration is not accurate to or even similar to that of Van's.
     
  5. Winman

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    All analogies fail, but it shows what the Bible says, Jesus bought all men with his blood, but it only profits those who apply for it by faith.

    Jesus paid our sins with his blood, and offers that payment to any who believes and will receive it. If you believe Jesus you will receive it, if you do not believe you will not receive it, but it is there for you whether you receive it or not.

    2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    In this verse Peter speaks of false teachers who shall bring in damnable heresies. There is no doubt these are lost persons, yet Peter said that Jesus "bought them".
     
  6. agedman

    agedman
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    Unfortunately, the context does not support your claim that a redemption by purchase was made of those who are apostates.

    2 Peter in context:
    2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.
    There is the issue that the word for "lord" in your translation, "master" in the NASB is never used in relationship to Christ.

    IN EVERY case when the Scriptures teach of the purchase Christ made it ALWAYS states such from what was done and/or by what method.

    For instance: 1 Corinthians 7:23, Acts 20:28, Galatians 3:13, Revelation 5:9 will show the pattern used.

    2 Peter does NOT follow that pattern. Rather, it parallels what Jude proclaims in similar warning.

    When the Greek word is used, it is in relationship to an earthly owner/boss or of God having authority as creator and master over Israel.

    To further clarify the contextual use, Peter uses OT references throughout his writing so the alignment with the purchase of Israel by God from Egypt is not askew from the context.

    As you rightly stated these folks are lost.

    Lest some casual reader miss this good point by Winman, let it be emphasized, again!

    Peter can be compared to Jude in the treatment of this topic. There is NO misrepresentation of these folks as heathen and lost.

    They were never saved, and it is invalid to consider them as ever having been saved.




     
  7. Winman

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    Sure there is, in Acts 4:24;

    Acts 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

    The word Lord in Acts 4:24 is the same as used in 2 Peter 2:1 and must be speaking of Jesus, as Jesus is the Creator.

    Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    So, whoever told you that one is mistaken.

    OK, and Jesus is the Creator who created everything that was made, so this word must be speaking of Jesus.

    Nice try though.
     
  8. Mexdeaf

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    The very fact that they can deny the Lord shows that they were never His in the first place. At one time, they profess to be "bought", but later by their words or actions they deny it.

    If we look at this in the same context as Hebrews 3:16-19

    For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

    They all came out- were delivered or "redeemed" - but not all received the promise.

    It is one thing to be corporately identified with the body of Christ- those who are "bought", and it is another to be one who is truly and in every sense of the word bought or redeemed by Christ.
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    Misdirection

    No quote will be forthcoming, because this is simply a slander. No one saves themselves, God does it.

    Correct

    My view has not changed. The implication that it has is just another slander.

    God begs us to be reconciled, to receive the gospel, and believe fully in Christ Jesus. The "oil" (mankind) has the volition of itself to accept or reject the gospel, but it is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness or not. So the extraction does not depend upon the man that wills to be extracted, but upon God who has mercy, Romans 9:16. I have made this point dozens of times.
     
  10. Van

    Van
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    Was the false teacher "corporately identified" with the body of Christ? No! But he was bought! However, was he redeemed? Not in the sense of being extracted. I am using "redeemed" in the sense of being extracted from the ground, i.e. to receive the reconciliation provided by the cross.
     
  11. percho

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    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Send me the tickets, please.
     
  12. Van

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    Does being "bought" mean a person is "His?" No, the false teacher had been bought but definitely was not "His." To be His is to be given to Him, placed in Him, washed by His blood, and kept forever.

    Using the illustration of the OP, the oil bought by the oil lease has not been extracted, and placed in Christ. Thus all mankind was bought in that Christ paid the ransom, but only those individuals who receive the reconciliation are "His."
     
  13. Mexdeaf

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    Now you are sounding like a Calvinist.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    Off topic.

    I am sure Christ paying the ransom for all because God desires all to be saved meshes well with scripture. But the two transactions, being bought, and being redeemed, are frequently conflated by some confused thinkers. That is why the oil lease, versus extraction, illustrates the spiritual truth so well. No pun intended. :)
     

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