breaking trust

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. Helen

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    We were talking about this in Bible study last night...

    In Ez. 28 we see what appears to be God speaking to Satan, via Ezekiel on God's part and the King of Tyre on Satan's part. We read in verse 13, "You were in Eden..." and then in verse 14, "You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you."

    If, indeed, Lucifer/Satan was originally the guardian cherub of Eden, then we have a very good reason why Eve was so 'easily' deceived (I know our hindsight is great here, but think about this). She knew this guardian cherub and trusted him.

    And then there came a time when this person she trusted was arguing against her understanding of what God had said. We know the results. Paul tells us she was deceived. Adam followed her into sin knowingly.

    And today I was still thinking about that while I was working outside and I was thinking what a breach of trust that was. And then I was thinking how this happens to people all the time. The person you trusted -- a mate, a parent, a boss, a friend -- starts to pull you away from what you know is right. But you trust that person, so what are you to do?

    Eve was not the only one to be deceived in this way, I think.

    And if I am not too far out on a limb here, I am also wondering if those people who break a trust like that are not Satan's representatives in our lives as much as we should be Christ's representatives in the lives of others.

    Does this mean that the person who breaks trust is lost eternally? I don't know. I know Peter denied the Lord and was restored. But I don't think he broke trust with someone who believed in him in doing that.

    Thoughts running through my head...
     
  2. El_Guero

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    I think you are reaching a little too much.



     
  3. Helen

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    In what way?
     
  4. El_Guero

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    WHY would she know satan was a cherub?

    WHY would she trust a cherub?

    And since God had told them that they WERE NOT supposed to eat from the tree, saying that she was 'deceived' distracts somewhat from her responsibility to TRUST God.

    At least that is what I would think.



     
  5. Scarlett O.

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    I don't think you are too far out at all. I don't think we recognize the voracious appetite for destruction that the devil has. The bible calls him a lion looking to devour.

    He can't have us as christians, but he can torment us and put lost people in our paths to "infiltrate" our defenses and destroy us and he can even tempt christian brothers and sisters to bring misery to each other.

    His plans for destruction wouldn't be so effective if they were very, very obvious. The bible calls him "subtle". It's like the frog in the boiler of water. At first, the water is comfortable and as the water temperature is increased little by little, the frog has no idea that he is being boiled and is going to die.

    The devil's plans can't compete with God's plans. Satan and God aren't equal competitors. Satan is a mere created being with a beginning and an end that is going to be horrible and God is Almighty God, holy and pure and all-powerful.

    But christians need to take great heed that even though we are going to heaven that the devil wishes for us to go empty-handed and to go as immature babies, crying for attention and never accomplishing anything for Christ.

    And yes, the devil sometimes uses that which we are most familiar with and those we are most familiar to bring havoc to our lives.

    We trust the familiar simply because it familiarity is comforting. That's our downfall. Don't misinterpret me here, but even sin is comforting in familiarity.

    Prolonged grief, substance abuse, and unhealthy relationships can sometimes be comforting because they are so familiar.

    We should only trust that which and those who testify to the truth of Almighty God be it or be they familiar, comfortable, painful (chastisment), or outside our comfort zone.



     
  6. Amy.G

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    Helen, I had never considered that before, but it makes sense (to me anyway). Satan is a deceiver and what ever his tactics are, they must be believeable. It's a scary thought, but we can be deceived in the same way as Eve if we take our eyes off Jesus.
    Thanks for sharing.:)
     
  7. Helen

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    Thank you, Scarlett. Some interesting thoughts.

    I was thinking more along the lines, however, of someone having gained someone else's trust, either by position or experience, and then using that trust for his or her own ends -- betraying it. Satan seems to have been the first to do this. Do others who consciously do this, then, follow in his footsteps as we endeavor to follow in Christ's?

    El Guero, Eve shows no surprise that the serpent it speaking to her, and, in fact, simply holds a conversation with him. God did not create her stupid. She was aware of who he was and trusted him. It is Paul who says she was deceived, by the way, not me!

    (I don't know if more responses are up yet. There has been about an hour's interruption while my daughter called and chattered!)

    "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."
    1 Tim. 2:13-14
     
  8. Brutus

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    cherub?

    Helen: Eve may have known and trusted the cherub but Eve didn't encounter a cherub she had a dialogue with a serpent. Are you trying to say that she would have known that this serpent was in fact that particular cherub?

    Michael (Brutus)
    Ps.121:godisgood:
     
  9. El_Guero

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    Helen

    I think your angle is interesting, however, I think that you are interpreting by placing modern human emotions upon the event. Yes, she was deceived by Satan, but that does not imply that the deception was because he was more seductive than eve was willing to sin. Responsibility (guilt) still belongs to Adam and Eve.
     
  10. Helen

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    Brutus, I don't know. I know that Eve does not appear to be surprised by the talking serpent! One thing I remember looking up some time ago was the word 'serpent' used in Genesis. It comes from a Hebrew word meaning to hiss, or whisper. We may, in our translations today, have entirely the wrong idea -- I don't know.

    Why would she believe a talking snake? There was a REASON she believed him. Some kind of familiarity....even trust?...

    El Guero, it is interesting that the Bible never puts responsibility for sin in the world on Eve, only on Adam. This is another reason I am wondering if Eve was deceived by someone she trusted. Adam took from Eve, and clearly knew better, for he is the one who gave her the instruction from God, it seems. Eve certainly bore the consequences of her action, but as far as judgment regarding responsibilty, the Bible is, at the least, not clear about that.

    What is the worst betrayal? To be betrayed by, or deceived by, someone whom you trust. To this day, that is seen as the most dispicable, isn't it? The friend who you have learned to trust through the years, and then find out he or she was using you for his or her own ends....the parent who is the natural object of trust for a child, who then sexually abuses or otherwise abuses the child BECAUSE the child trusts that parent. So many examples are possible. And all of them, I think, make us cringe.

    Is that what happened to Eve?
     
  11. tinytim

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    And of course the serpent then is not like it is today.. for it walked like a dinosaur.... As a matter of fact.... Could the serpent been a dinosaur?

    I wonder how beautiful some of the dinosaurs actually were, I mean are we for sure they were that pukey green color that we always see?
    And I wonder if some had some type of vocal chords and were able to talk... some birds do.

    Maybe I am reaching now!
     
  12. Helen

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    Tim, dinosaurs walked upright, with their hips like some mammals, designed for that.

    Most lizards walk with their legs splayed out, and their hips designed for that method of locomotion. There are a few lizards like the kimodo dragon which walk with a more upright stance, but just on this hip structure alone, I doubt that the serpent in Eden was any type of dinosaur.

    Whatever was speaking to Eve, though, didn't it seem like she trusted it to be telling her the truth?
     
  13. Allan

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    Could animals and humans been able (before the fall) to communicate. I know that God used to animals in scripture to speak to man so why is that such a far fetched Idea? Did the scriptures lie when God used the animals to talk to people? The answer is quite obvious, no.

    If animals COULD have been able to talk to man, then would it be much of a surprise that Eve's reaction was as if nothing was out of the ordinary.

    But I will state this...though I agree with 'The Big El G." that you are reaching, I will say that this much is not so.
    There was no diception or lies in the Garden and therefore NO REASON for Eve NOT to trust the serpent.

    In the Hebrew nachash {naw-khawsh'} is the term for sepernt - 'so called' from its hissing (see root word)...
    The root word is nachash {naw-khash'} and is - to hiss or WHISPER especailly used of the WHISPERING of soothsaying.

    This is implying if not actaully stating a speach in a low but audible whishpering that is connected with the KNOWN animal named for its apearent speach pattern (serpent) and why Eve was not afraid or confused when it spoke to her.
    He was also known to be more sutle (prudent or CAUTIOUS) than ALL the creatures of the field. Why wouldn't you trust the serpent!?
    But here is where I agree that Satan used a trust to his advantage for his own desires and self. Thus you have the first time trust was broken because he disorted the innocent fellowship with regard to trust and truth for selfish purposes. The serpent was even cursed because he went along with it. Now whether that means he knew before hand or that as he found out he continued on without stopping this devious plot...shrug...who knows but he was found guilty by God and judged for it.

    Another thing... Satan was not the 'Covering Cherub of Eden'. Scripture states that Satan had been in Eden and walked there. But that does not mean he was there when man was there. God did not create man until the 6th day and we do not know when Satan actaully fell but we do know that scripture never once places him near Man until the serpent enters the picture. Man walked with God- not angels. God instructed man, we find no where even alluding to angels instructing or even speaking with man in the Garden.

    Oh Back the Covering Cherub...
    As you can see, Satan was the covering cherub in Holy Mountain of God. Quite literally one of the covering Cherubs of the throne of God or more acturately the mercy seat of Christ . And this is why he was cast out of heaven (where he was) to earth (where he is confined to). He is called the son of the morning and Jesus is called the Bright and Morning Star (that was extra and my own opinion regarding the morning star issue)-
    Jamison Faust:
    Though as I stated just a bit ago, I do see the abuse of trust you spoke to and find it quite interesting as well. Thank you for that insightful look.
     
    #13 Allan, Feb 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2007
  14. johnp.

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    Hello Helen.

    Forgive me for this but Ezekiel EZE 28:1-10 is talking to a man, where does Satan come into it?

    EZE 28:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

    " `In the pride of your heart
    you say, "I am a god;
    I sit on the throne of a god
    in the heart of the seas."
    But you are a man and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god.

    john.
     
  15. Amy.G

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    I think the main point of Helen's post was the issue of trust even tho it's interesting to think the "serpent" could have been a cherub or an animal. Eve was deceived because she trusted the serpent. That doesn't take away her responsibility for her actions, but when we trust someone it's really easy to be led astray by them. Maybe this is more of a problem with women. :laugh: Oops! Did I say that?:saint:
     
  16. Helen

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    John, the King of Tyre was NOT in Eden and was NOT a cherub. He was NOT perfect in all his ways even to begin with. Lucifer was.

    Was the King of Tyre satanically indwelt? Possibly. It does appear, however, that just as God used Ezekiel to speak for Him, he used the King of Tyre to address Satan. Yes, the beginning verses of chapter 28 address the man, the King of Tyre. But look at the boast of that King -- he says he is a god and sits on the throne of a god. Who presents that temptation to man? Satan. So by verse 12, God is no longer addressing the man himself, but the power behind (or within) the man, Satan.

    Allan, no animals and humans could not speak to each other as you are thinking of at any time. That would require a physiology and mental capacity they simply don't have and weren't created with. They cannot imagine and they do not communicate symbolically -- both these things are necessary regarding our languages.

    Whether or not Satan was the covering, or guardian, angel of Eden, he certainly did not fall before the creation week was finished. For God declared all creation 'very good' and that would not include a rebellion which involved 1/3 of the angelic beings!

    Eve was not stupid. We tend to think of early man in evolutionary terms, as being brutish. But biblically, and historically, although we have gotten pretty good technologically, the truth is the opposite -- the first man and woman were extraordinary and we have been steadily degenerating ever since. Eve trusted that serpent for a reason, in other words. She was not simply enamored of a talking beast.

    We do know that there are guardian angels, not just for individuals, but at least for Israel as well. The name Lucifer means 'carrier of light', and light is, spiritually, always a euphemism for understanding in the Bible and in many current cultures as well, including ours, as in "Do you see the light on that issue now?" When we put all this together, it is at least a strong possibility that Lucifer was the guardian cherub of Eden, the crown of God's creation at that point, and had access both to the throne of God and earth (as he still had in the book of Job and will have until he is finally cast out of heaven in the last days). Thus, yes, he certainly has walked among the fiery stones, although I am honestly not sure what that refers to. It was, if this is true, his responsibility to help man and woman gain insight and understanding.

    When he betrayed that trust, we can see biblically that the Holy Spirit Himself takes over that job for those who believe. When he betrayed that trust, Eve would have had no way of knowing, but simply communed with him, in whatever form, as she may have done before.

    However it happened, to get back to the OP, she evidently trusted him and he betrayed that trust in a way that has reverberated through creation from that time on. And what I was thinking yesterday is that he is thus a prototype of all who gain the trust of others and then in a calculated and conscious way, betray that trust.

    Although we have been discussing the happening in the garden, that was not my primary thought here. I was thinking of how people betray one another as an animal could never do. We have this capacity for evil that does not exist anywhere else in the physical creation. And some people seem to exploit it to the full. Are these people, who do this to others, actually (whether they conciously know it or not) following Satan?
     
  17. Helen

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    Amy, I think we are more easily deceived. Women tend to be more relationship-oriented than men. Watch a newborn baby during its first few months. The little girls will focus on human faces and the little boys on moving objects. We are hard-wired differently. This is one basic reason why God has told us a woman should not usurp authority over a man.
     
  18. Amy.G

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    I believe that as well. :)
     
  19. Scarlett O.

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    :BangHead:
     
  20. johnp.

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    Helen.

    So it's from verse 12? Verse 12 Ezekiel is addressing the King of Tyre.

    Do you know the history of Tyre and Jerusalem?

    Man doesn't need Satan's help. Anyway, it is a thing God calls us, John 10:35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken...

    Where's all this extra info coming from? Which Lucifer do you mean?

    john.
     

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