Brewer Chrsitian College and Graduate School?

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by hvnhlpr, May 13, 2005.

  1. hvnhlpr

    hvnhlpr
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  2. UZThD

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    IMo the Bible/Theology profs are not academically qualified to teach grad courses in those areas. Why not pick an accredited school?
     
  3. UZThD

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    hvnhlpr

    Since you were kind enough to ask me privately for more of my opinion, here is my opinion. I post it here so that others may respond to it if they wish:

    Accreditation in the USA of Theological schools is not granted at the state level. It is either by regional, gov approved accreditors or private ones as TRACS or ATS. Gov approved accreditors have requisites re the academic qualifications for faculty. These include the rule that generally those teaching grad courses in Bib/Theol should have an accredited, earned doc in the area of instruction.

    I looked at the faculty for Brewer ,which school awards docs in the study of Religion, and saw no one there with an accred doc in Religion! I looked at the Educational Standards req by FCPC and saw no req re the academic qualifications of faculty.

    In order to for a prof to adequately teach grad courses in Bible/Theology at a level taught in accredited schools requires that prof to have experienced formally the rigor of such a program himself. There are rare exceptions to this rule.

    Again, I urge you to consider an accredited program.
     
  4. hvnhlpr

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    Thanks UZThd! Very interesting. Any other comments? Has anyone out there attended the school?
     
  5. PatsFan

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    I looked at the website too. I essentially agree with Bill. On a positive note I noticed it is an affiliate with ABHE, so at some point they may be accredited with a CHEA recognized accrediting board. (ABHE doesn't accredit doctoral programs yet though, so they may have to get rid of those).
     
  6. Rhetorician

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    hvnhlpr,

    UZTHD will not tell you wrongly. He knows that of which he speaks

    If God has called you to minister His word and serve him, there is no short cut to excellence. Go ahead and do an accredited degree--it will be worth it in the long run. It is more expensive, yes!? Will it cost more time, money,and personal sacrifice; yes!? But, you will have something in the end. You will have the confidence that you have done your best for the Master. You will also become (or have something) something that you would not have become going an easier or cheaper route--Character.

    Later, if you are called or prompted to go on to do grad work, you will not have to do anything over again.

    My two cents worth!

    sdg!

    rd
     
  7. hvnhlpr

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    Thanks for the replies.

    All bias aside (yeah right!)-is there ever a place for legitimate unaccredited graduate degrees e.g. Bethany Divinity College, Andersonville, Covington, etc...

    Some of these schools now use ITS courses, Andersonville to be more specific- same material, FAR LESS $$$, but no RA.

    I'm sure there a valid points on both sides.

    Remember- no bias :D :D :D :D
     
  8. Martin

    Martin
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    ==If you want a graduate degree you will be better off spending your money on a fully accredited program. The importance of this cannot be over stated mainly when it comes to distance education. Non accredited distance education graduate degrees are, for all practical purposes, worthless. No accredited school will accept it, and career options will be highly limited.

    You can get a graduate degree online/distance from quality accredited schools. Luther Rice Seminary and Liberty University are two good examples. The cost of both schools is reasonable and their programs are of high quality. Also degrees from those schools, mainly Liberty (because of RA), will be accepted almost everywhere. Sure it may cost more than Andersonville but the old saying is true, you get what you pay for. If you cut corners and try to go the less expensive/easy route you will, in the long run, most likely regret it.

    My pastor is a good example. Years ago, before distance education was acceptable, he got a masters and doctorate from Covington Seminary. Neither degree is accepted anywhere. The only theological degree he has is the associates from Mid-America (he also has two other associate degrees). He now wishes he had done things differently. However the money and time are spent and there is no getting that back. I could tell other simular stories as well.

    If you want a quality education count the cost and make the sacrifice. If it is worth having it is worth the cost. That may mean paying more money, taking more time, or even moving to a school's campus (if you can't find a distance program that fits your needs). However if it is worth having it is worth working hard for.

    You must understand. By getting an unaccredited graduate degree (from Andersonville, Covington) you are only short changing yourself. I know distance education is slow coming in theological education (while almost all other fields have embraced it) and that can make it tough. However I go back to my basic point, if it is worth having it is worth doing what you must to gain it. I suspect in ten or so years there will be much more distance education options in theology, but for now there is only a hand full of good schools offering distance programs. However that is no reason to cut corners and attend a non-accredited school (on or off campus).

    In Christ,
    Martin
     
  9. hvnhlpr

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    Thanks you Bro. Martin,

    "By getting an unaccredited graduate degree (from Andersonville, Covington) you are only short changing yourself."

    You mean as far as the quality of the programs in question? Andersonsonville has really caught my eye because of the new Theological School they have implemented (ITS).
     
  10. StefanM

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    I agree. Some of the master's degrees are accredited, but nearly all of the doctorates are unaccredited.

    Also, does anyone else see the problem in this?

    Dr. Kenneth L. Brewer
    Biblical and Theological Studies/Counseling
    B.Th., Logos Christian College
    M.T.S., Logos Graduate School
    D.D., Logos Graduate School
    D.Ed., Faith Theological Seminary


    Dr. Mary Jane Brewer
    Biblical and Theological Studies/Counseling
    B.S.M., Logos Christian College
    M.S.M., Logos Graduate School
    D.D. Logos Graduate School
     
  11. Martin

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    ==If you are wanting a good theological education via distance education I would, again, point you to Liberty, Luther Rice, or Southern Evangelical. Also the Southern Baptist seminaries (Southeastern, Southern, New Orleans, etc) offer degrees 30% online the rest on campus. All of these would be solid theological degrees.

    Regardless of ITS, Andersonville is unaccredited and any degree earned there will not be accepted by any accredited college/university/seminary. Not only that employment options will be limited.

    I know that Andersonville looks appealing (less expensive, not as high academic requirements, etc). However don't let that blind you to the simple fact: Andersonville may not meet your educational needs. They are not accredited. While they may attempt to down play that fact believe me, the fact that Andersonville is not accredited is very, very important. It will be important if you choose to further your education beyond Andersonville (nobody will accept credits/degrees from Andersonville) and it will be important if you attempt to find employment using your Andersonville degree (many schools, etc, require accredited degrees).

    You should either get your graduate study via distance education through a fully accredited school, or, relocate and attend a fully accredited school on campus. While neither option maybe as easy as Andersonville, both options are far better (academically, etc). If you are just wanting to take ITS courses (ie..no degree) why go through Andersonville? Why not just order the courses directly from ITS ?
     
  12. hvnhlpr

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    Martin,

    ITS courses are fantastic, and if most of the coursework for Andersonville's Doc program is based on the ITS work, why not consider Andersonville?

    Do you really know for a fact that Andersonville degrees are not accepted by any RA schools? Or by any reputable organization, churches etc? Is Andersonville's rep that bad?
     
  13. Martin

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    ==I am watching their "sample video lesson" on Romans. Some thoughts:

    1. Poor quality audio. It is hard to understand portions of the lesson.

    2. Fair video quality. A bit fuzzy and I have high speed internet.

    3. The lesson is more devotional preaching and not seminary teaching.

    Their "sample video lesson" on Advanced Leadership principles:

    1. Fair video quality. A bit fuzzy and I have high speed internet.

    2. The lesson is more devotional preaching and not seminary teaching.

    3. The audio is a bit better (but only due to the speakers voice).

    Neither teacher has a microphone. It looks like it is filmed with a home video camera. The result is a home video sound quality. Also both lessons look to be filmed in the same room in front of closets. No maps, blackboard, anything. It looks (and sounds) more like a church service than a seminary class. The assignments seem rather weak as well. Just reviewing the Leadership class I see no research project or exam(s). The Romans course requires a research project but no exam(s) or tests.

    I also notice that they are not accredited. They attempt to cover this up by giving a somewhat impressive list of "Authorization, Affiliations & Certification". However none of those are real accrediting agencies (some are not even accrediting agencies). To me this is false advertising that serves the purpose of fooling those who don't know anything about accreditation. NO professing Christian school should do this. This misleading tactic alone would be enough for me to say that people should look to other schools (there are several fine, Bible believing, fully accredited seminaries out there that offer distance learning).

    And, to top it off, they have a endorsement by Jon Brennan of MTV's Real World fame. I remember him from when I was a teenager. Such an "endorsement" is curious to me.

    In short I think, from just looking over their web-site, money/time would be much better spent some place else. A fully accredited school is the only type of school students should consider for graduate degrees in theology via distance learning. These smaller non-accredited schools may be nice for people just looking to keep themselves busy with a Bible study, but they will not do for serious, academic theological study.
     
  14. Martin

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    ==I have surveyed all of the major seminaries on the issue of accreditation. All of them require some form of government accreditation (mostly regional accreditation). I also have family members who have worked with SACS (accrediting schools and seminaries). Any graduate degree earned at Andersonville will not be accepted by any accredited seminary or theological graduate school. That I can assure you.

    As for churches...that will depend upon the church. The Baptists, for example, do not usually require a degree at all. However I would say, again, that you will get what you pay for. ITS, or no ITS, Andersonville cannot give you the high quality education other well established and fully accredited schools can.

    Andersonville's rep. is this: It is unaccredited though it claims to be accredited (by ACI). No that is not a good reputation.

    Read the following on ACI
    Great Moments in Accreditation

    Real -vs- False Accreditation

    Beware of Fake Accreditation

    Beware of Dimploma Mills

    Warnings About False Accrediting Agencies

    Accreditation FAQs

    Those web-sites should cause you to see why many schools will have a negative view of Andersonville.

    In Christ,
    Martin.
     
  15. hvnhlpr

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    Thank Bro. Martin for your candid response.

    In other words, anyone that has a degree from a ACI school attended a "mill"

    I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has a Doc from Andersonville, Covington, Bethany Divinity and the like.
     
  16. Rhetorician

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    Martin,

    I would like to know who your pastor is w/the Associate of Divinity (Diploma of Theology) from Mid America.

    I too have that degree. It is what got me started on the road to higher theological ed. We longed and prayed for the time when MABTS would receive SACS accreditation. It was the first school to be turned down and then appeal and get the papers. I was there the day Dr. Gray shouted "glory" when he received the phone call from Atlanta.

    I know you may not want to tell your pastor's name on the BB but feel free to have him email me off line or I will you. Please advise. I would like to know who he is--he may be an old friend or colleague of mine.

    sdg!

    rd
     
  17. Rhetorician

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    Martin,

    Who is your pastor? I too graduated from MABTS with the Diploma of Theology (Associate of Divinity) degree. If fact it was what got me started on the road to higher Christian ed.

    He may be a colleague or friend of mine. Plesae advise.

    sdg!

    rd
     
  18. Rhetorician

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  19. Paul33

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    hvnhlpr,

    I understand your defensiveness, but if you want to earn a degree that counts, you do need an accredited school. It's really that simple.

    Now if you want to call yourself "doctor" and the circles you float in don't care, then by all means, pick your poison.

    But if you are serious about graduate level education, you've been warned and encouraged to attend Liberty, Luther Rice, etc.

    I hope that you will take the advice given to you.

    By the way, I attempted to learn more about Covington on the internet. The site directs you to email the registrar! Hmm.

    I know that I am repeating what others have said, but it appears that you are not convinced.
     
  20. Nord

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    To the question of whether there is a place for schools like Andersonville, Brewer, etc. Well....in this day and age some limited place. I guess the point is why?? When there are so many...many accredited and affordable options why short change yourself. In the states you have Liberty, LRS, and others that are affordable, distance learning, and accredited. If you cannot afford that, I bet SATS (South Africa Theological Seminary) is probably about the same cost (maybe cheaper) as Andersonville & Brewer, but likely to have far more utility.

    On a couple of boards there is a pastor who posts who has a DMin from Erskine but early on in his career he got a degree from an unaccredited school that he later determined to be substandard. So embarrassed was he that he returned the diploma later and went on to earn accredited degrees. He specifically earned another bachelors in order to give that one back.

    That is not to say that an unaccredited school is always bad and that you cannot learn but I would NOT get it as my starting degree or my capstone degree. I am taking courses towards an MMin degree from a Church of Christ school. Credible school with limited transferability, not accredited, helpful to me in terms of further learning. It is sandwiched in between three other accredited degrees from undergrad through doctorate.

    If you are starting out or intending to use the degree....caveat...caveat..
    If money is the problem I would look to SATS.

    And ACI.....oy vey does that have a history....

    North
     

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