Brick wall for Rapturists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Christopher, Mar 22, 2002.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher
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    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [John 6:44]

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. [John 12:48]

    According to these two verses, the same day the believers are raised the unbelievers are judged.

    By His grace, Christopher †
     
  2. Pastor Larry

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    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [John 6:44]

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. [John 12:48]

    According to these two verses, the same day the believers are raised the unbelievers are judged.

    By His grace, Christopher †
    </font>[/QUOTE]The "last day" encompasses quite a bit in Scripture. It is inadequate to try to attach one single referent to all the uses of it. Furthermore, it is bad theology to go to two separate contexts that use the same words and identify the two as the same without sufficient exegetical and theological argumentation. Proof texting, as it is commonly called, is not good sound theological practice. This is no brick wall for rapturists. In fact, it is a non-issue because of the many and varied uses of it.

    [ March 23, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  3. Christopher

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    Excuse me, but from what I know about English there can only be one "last" day or else it could not be called the last day. In other words, there are, in fact, 2 last days according to you. Show me that from scripture. I'm not proof-texting I'm just simply stating what Jesus said. What about what Martha said to Jesus about Lazarus, that she knew he would be raised up at the last day...

    Which last day was she referring to?

    By His grace, Christopher †

    [ March 23, 2002, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
     
  4. Robert Nicholson

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    Christopher:

    Martha did not have the truth which we have been given by God in the New Testament. She like Job of old believed in the resurrection.

    Day can be used as in "Behold now is the day of salvation". This refers to a period of time when God by his grace is offering salvation to all who will come to Christ by him.

    In Rev. 20:6 we read "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." In v. 7-11 of the same chapter we read of the final judgement against satan and those who have risen up against God with him. In v. 11 we read of the doom of those of all ages who have rejected Christ as they stand before the great white throne. Each one at this judgment suffers the second death V.14.

    Just a few thoughts.
    Robert
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    We who study the Word have to be careful not to classify ‘day' and ‘days' together as if there was not reason for God making a distinction.

    Days--for example, is mentioned in Isaiah 2:2; Isaiah 51:9 the Hebrew word being ‘yowm' indicating a period of time. It can mean also, an age, days, full year or even forever. As you recall in Daniel 7:9 & 13 Jesus is called the Ancient of Days, meaning He is eternal. In Jeremiah 3:16, 18; 23:5 the plural word days is used.

    In Isaiah 2:2-5 offers a period of time called, ‘ . . . in the last days . . . ' The prophet is pointing to a future age when the Millinimum will be sovereignly administered by Christ where the Word of the Lord will go out from Jerusalem. A relative period of peace will enshroud the world as defined in verse 4.

    The same is true of Jeremiah 23:5 & 6. This prophet points to a time, ‘ . . . the days come, saith the Lord . . . ' The righteous Branch is Christ who will govern from Jerusalem as pointed out in verse 6. ‘ . . . and Israel will dwell safely . . . ' during His Millennial reign of 1,000 years.

    Now moving into the New Testament in John 6:39, 40,44, and 54 God uses the Greek word, ‘hemera' indicating a day, a twenty-four hour period of time. The Greek article ‘the' suggests clearly a specific twenty-four hour event in time.

    Some think the ‘last day' is the end of time. I believe the ‘last day' is the triumphant day when Christ will come for His church [I Thess. 4:17 & I Corinthians 15:51-58]. This is distinct from the Second Coming of Christ who will come in judgment on sinners [Rev. 19:11].

    In the true story of Lazarus resurrection from the dead, apparently, Martha believed that if Lazarus would not be raised to life, he would ‘ . . . rise again, in the resurrection at the last day. This last day will be a twenty-four hour day. For some it will take place in the night, on the other side of the world, and for other saints it will be during the day light hours.

    The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment points to not only two unique reckonings, but also two distinctive resurrections. The saints in I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-58; and the wicked/lost people in Revelation 20:5. ‘ . . . the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1,000 years were finished. What will be the reason for bringing the wicked out of their graves? The answer is they must stand before the tribunal of Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment [Rev. 20:11-15]. Verse 11 says, ‘ . . . and there was found no place for them,' indicating the wicked. We have a place in God's care which is noted in John 14:1-3 ‘ . . . that where I am there ye may be also.'

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Robert Nicholson,

    Great point! You said, 'Each one at this judgment suffers the second death.' We have received everlasting life through the Son, our Savior.

    In verse 13 God says, 'and these were judged every man according to his or her works.' Christians would not be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment because we are not saved by our works.

    At the Judgment Seat of Christ we will be evaluated for our works accomplished in this life [Romans 14:10 & II Cor. 5:10].

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  7. tyndale1946

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    Chistopher said
    Dr. Berrian said In Isaiah 2:2-5 offers a period of time called, ‘ . . . in the last days . . . ' The prophet is pointing to a future age when the Millinimum will be sovereignly administered by Christ where the Word of the Lord will go out from Jerusalem. A relative period of peace will enshroud the world as defined in verse 4.

    The same is true of Jeremiah 23:5 & 6. This prophet points to a time, ‘ . . . the days come, saith the Lord . . . ' The righteous Branch is Christ who will govern from Jerusalem as pointed out in verse 6. ‘ . . . and Israel will dwell safely . . . ' during His Millennial reign of 1,000 years.

    I agree with Christopher and would like someone to put in perspective according to the rules Pastor Larry laid down of the follwing verses of 2nd Peter.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    If you look at the verses before you will see that this was in comparison to the flood. According to scripture there was no warning given and everyone was doing their thing until they were destroyed. The same comparison is used for the last days before Jesus comes again.

    Somebody clear up something for me will you please. According to scripture you say by interpretation that Jesus will set foot again on earth and rule from Jerusalem for 1,000 years. Then what are you going to do with the verse in Peter that says the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements will will melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Now at the 2nd coming of Christ all this take place the way I understand it. He comes raises the dead, judges them, appoints those not his their place of torment and takes his children home. This is the same home he prepared for them in John 14. Why would they need to reign 1,000 years if they already have a home to go to?

    If you are saying that him ruling in Jerusalem will finally give the Jews the chance to receive the one they rejected, that broken cistern won't hold water. BTW that is what the Jehova Witness believe in a restored earth. There will never be peace on this earth... This earth is cursed and everything dies. IMHO the risen Christ will never set foot on this earth again because the scriptures state we will meet him in the air.

    2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?... Even so COME LORD JESUS!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ March 23, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  8. Robert Nicholson

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    According to Acts 1 the Lord Jesus will come back to the mount of olives from whence he left.

    He is coming in power and glory "taking vengenance on them who know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thess. 1:8 This occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation. We find that Satan is bound for 1000 years. Rev. 20:2

    In Isaiah 32:1 we read "Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment" This is referring to the day when Christ will reign with his saints over the earth (Rev.5:10)

    At the end of the 1000 year reign Satan is loosed for a season Rev. 20:7 Again humans rebel and are destroyed with "fire which came down from God out of heaven" Rev. 20:9

    After the Great White Throne Judgment we find in Rev. 21:1 "a new heaven and a new earth, for the first earth and heaven were passed away." I believe that this is the eternal state when Christ hands everything to God.

    Robert
     
  9. tyndale1946

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    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    According to the book of Acts they saw him ascend into heaven and a cloud received him out of their sight and he will return in like manner. As far as him returning from where he left there isn't any scripture to support that belief... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  10. Robert Nicholson

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    Brother Glen:

    The reason for my suggestion that Christ will return to the mount of olives is found in Zechariah 14:4
    "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

    In Christ
    Robert
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    Tyndale,

    Acts 1:12 Christ ascended from Mount Olivet close to Jerusalem. In Zechariah 14:4 indicates that Jesus' feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem. There is your answer.

    At the conclusion of the Second Coming of Christ He will set up His Messianic rule in Jerusalem. Read Zechariah 14:11, 17, 9. Earthly history is far from being over. Add on at least 1,000 years for the Millinimum.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  12. rlvaughn

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    In I Corinthians 15:51-56, the victory over death is placed at the resurrection of the saints. In Revelation 20:11-15, when this last enemy (death, I Cor. 15:26) is dealt with, the wicked are also punished. How does pre-tribulationism, dispensationalism, premillennialism, etc. reconcile this?
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    Tyndale 1946,

    You said in effect, 'Christ will never set His foot down in Jerusalem' [Zechariah 14:4].

    My statement, "So say your Ammillenialist teachers who taught you error. . . '

    My regards, for your right to believe this.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  14. Christopher

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    [II Pet. 3:10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    According to I Peter 3:12, Christians will be present upon the earth until the "coming of the the day of God." Else, why did Peter admonish the Christians to be "looking for and hasting" unto the Lord's coming?

    By His grace, Christopher †
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Tyndale 1946,

    The correct order of eschatological events will be the Second Advent/rapture of the church. The Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ, Satan will be bound for 1,000 years--during that Millennial Age, then Satan will be loosed, the nations will gather against Jerusalem [Revelation 20:8] fire comes down out of Heaven destroying the enemies of the children of God, the Devil, Antichrist, and the False Prophet will be put in the Lake of Fire, then the dissolving and disappearing of the heavens and the earth as mentioned in II Peter 3:10. The famous Greek scholar thoroughly explains this in his, "In These Last Days--Greek New Testament." (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.) The volume you need covers II Peter, I II III John and Jude.

    The dissolving of the heavens and the earth does not take place exactly at the Second Coming of Christ. Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest tells us that ‘one day is with the Lord as a thousand years . . . ' Verse 8 of II Peter 3 is connected with ‘ . . . the day of the Lord.' On page 72 Wuest indicates that the Day of the Lord comprises the Great Tribulation through the Millennium of 1,000 years because of Peter's words in vs. 8. His quote goes like this. ‘This great conflagration occurs at the latter's end.' Here Wuest means that the inferno of the burning and removal of this present heavens {the sky and clouds} and earth will take place right after Revelation 20:8-9 and just before the Great White Throne Judgment adjourned for those who will have refuse Christ while living on this present earth. That is why God has said in Rev. 20:11 ‘ . . . there was found no place for them' {meaning on our good old earth} Why? Because God Almighty will have destroy our earth as noted in II Peter 3:10. The Millennium merging into eternity is the Day of God. (II Peter 3:12) For Wuest the Day of God is the entry of the new heavens and the new earth and the beginning of eternity.

    This is Biblical theology that was lost a few years after the Apostolic band went to be with the Lord in Heaven. The Reformation leaders were caught up in the Calvinistic verses the Arminian debates in theology. As someone has already said J.N. Darby probably first introduced much of this truth again to the Christian church in our most recent centuries. Men like Chafer, Walvoord, Grant R. Jeffry, Randall Price, and Thomas Ice who is the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Washington, D.C. have brought great clarity as to these end times events.

    Thanks be to God.

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    Well two problems jump to mind immediately. First the Bible is written in Greek and Hebrew, not in English, so whatever you know about English is not extremely helpful. Secondly, context is the king and it the thing you keep ignoring. It is why you hold your position on Israel and the church and on the future for Israel. If you consider Scripture in its context, there is no exegetical way to get to the conclusion you have.

    The Last Days incorporate much in Scripture. There is probably a slight distinction between Day and Days but it is not great in many cases. Furthermore, you refuse to acknowledge the exitence of multiple resurrections as clearly testified to in Scripture. Thus, the last day would not be the first resurrection or the resurrection of the church. There are many easy explanations for these things that do not require your theology. STudy it out to verify that.

    [ March 24, 2002, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  17. Christopher

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    [John 5:28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    There will come a time when ALL who are in the graves will come forth, both righteous and wicked...ONE RESURRECTION. According to your theory, the righteous and wicked will not be resurrected at the same time but in two separate resurrections and three if you count the rapture of the church. If this were the case, there would be clear teaching of such in Scripture. Instead, the proof texts used by proponents of this view are very ambiguous and, more often than not, taken out of context to fit into a theological system.

    By His grace, Christopher †

    [ March 24, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    John 6:39, 40, 11:24, 12:48 all deal with the last day.

    [John 12:48]....................I see what you mean about the righteous and the unjust having their last day. My understanding is that the last day for the saints will be I Thess. 4:17, I Cor. 15:51-58.

    [John 12:48].............The last day for the lost will be after the Day of the Lord mentioned in II Peter 3:10 when God removes, by fire, ‘the heavens {sky & clouds} and the earth.' Rev. 20:11 says, since ‘ . . . there was found no place for them' the lost will stand before the tribunal of the Lord called the Great White Throne Judgment [Also, verse 11]. All who enter here have the worst of all ending and the beginning of eternity in Hell. These events above, of course, will take place after Christ's theocratic reign of 1,000 years on the earth.

    Rev. 20:5 clearly marks the appointed time when the lost will be raise from their graves. ‘But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.' They ‘lived not again' suggests that they were alive physically at one time, that they died, and that they will be made alive once again to be judged as sinners and for their evil 'works'.

    Amillennialist teachers wrongly teach that ‘the first resurrection' is when a person is born of the Spirit. The first resurrection will be when the saints are raised from their physical graves and are taken up in the clouds to be with the Lord [I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-58]. Christ is the firstfruits of those who are asleep in the Lord. [I Cor. 15:20].

    Christians are made a part of the 'first resurrection,' at Christ's return for His glorious church. The lost will feel the initial sting of the 'second death,' when they make their eternal, residence in the Lake of fire. [Rev. 20:14] The Apostle John tells us that the second death will be when 'death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire.' This is an awful result of not simply believing in Jesus Christ with a trusting faith.

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    When it says that "all who are in the graves shall come forth" notice what it does not say: It does not say all that have ever been in the graves will come forth." It does not say, "This is the only resurrection." You have a tendency to read things into Scripture that are not there because of your necessity to support your doctrine. The reality is that the verse you cite is not the least bit damaging. The problem you ahve is the Scripture does clearly teach more than one resurrection in Rev 20. You can say what you want about it but you cannot deny the words "first resurrection" and "The rest of the dead come to life." It is clear from this passage that there is a resurrection that does not include everyone since there is "the rest of the dead." Here, your view is a direct denial of what Scripture teaches.
     
  20. Christopher

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    Ray,

    I appreciate your kind reply to my post, as opposed to other members of this board who have a tendency to throw stones.

    If the first resurrection is the rapture of the church, who will be on earth to populate the millennial kingdom?

    By His grace, Christopher †
     

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