Bridge building now partially outsourced to China.

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by exscentric, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. exscentric

    exscentric
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  2. HankD

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    Hmm, Chinese capitalism, doesn't seem that long ago that Mao was ranting about the American Imperial colonialists and capitalists wanting to spread their influence, power and leadership around the world.

    Now we have politicians in office who have communist friends and supporters.

    Roll reversal?

    HankD
     
  3. billwald

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    Why is this different than sending any other job to China? If it is a good business decision for GE, GM . . . then why is it not a good decision for the government? Is it not cutting taxes? Anyway, don't you all say it isn't the business of government to generate jobs? Governments CAN'T generate jobs? Isn't that the BB/Wingnut mantra? You all want your cake and eat it, too?
     
  4. targus

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    And why aren't you on your union/wingnut mantra about union workers in this issue?
     
  5. billwald

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    I thought it was a pro union rant. I write as if people can understand sarcasm and other standard forms of speech.

    I even added "Anyway, don't you all say it isn't the business of government to generate jobs? Governments CAN'T generate jobs? Isn't that the BB/Wingnut mantra? You all want your cake and eat it, too?" in case my intended sarcasm was not clear. I am not going to write in baby talk.
     
  6. Crabtownboy

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    Yes, they want the cake and to eat it too.

    Republicans and conservatives should approve of this. It will cost less and should increase corporate profits ... or at least cost the government less. Is this not what they preach they want, less cost and larger profits?
     
  7. HankD

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    I'm an independent: pro-life and pro-free enterprise.

    With the state of our economy and rate of unemployment being what it is, to farm out our own domestic work to a less-than-friendly nation shows a lack of wisdom (IMO).

    HankD
     
  8. Ruiz

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    Farming out things actually is an economic stimulus. In the debate right before the South Carolina Primaries, Ron Paul gave a great explanation of the business cycle and outsourcing.

    Outsourcing allows us to pay less for goods and frees up more money to do other things. The people who are outsourced to are investing in our dollar, allowing more stability of our currency. Trust me, if we didn't have this stability, our dollar would have collapsed years ago and while it still may crash, we enjoyed stability a lot longer than we should have. As well, these lower costs are good for the consumer but also good for the American based companies. Apple, for instance, outsources allowing their employees here to enjoy the benefits of more money for investing, salaries, benefits, and R&D. Thus, they can afford to develop things like the iPhone or risk seeing failures like their first tablet or Apple TV.

    Outsourcing is great.

    The issue with China is interesting, but I agree with Reagan/Bush I that trade is often the best way to see barriers come down. While Reagan/Bush was inconsistent, I have advocated free trade around the globe and open trade relations with Cuba and even Iran. A country very invested in trade in another country will think twice about attacking them. Turkey is our friend partly because of our robust trade relations with this country. They don't really love us, but they love our money so they overlook many other things about us.
     
    #8 Ruiz, Jan 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2012
  9. HankD

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    Yes there is that side of the issue.
    But there is another issue: The materials are coming from China. Shanghai Zhenhua Heavy Industries.

    Besides a virtual slave labor encampment manufacturing the steel (which takes from the American workforce to manufacture the steel) do we want to trust Chinese fabricated steel?

    http://www.kiplinger.com/businessre...at_from_China_Steel_070907.html#ixzz1kOmwfn9D


    Another:
    Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com...073_1_global-economy-ship-delay#ixzz1kOrIv5F8

    HankD
     
    #9 HankD, Jan 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  10. Ruiz

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    Hank,

    And that is why we have contracts that mandate quality standards. Apple mandates a certain quality standard on the iPhone and iPad. Overall, that quality standard is top in the industry.

    Thus, if we export some of these issues, contracts help protect us from their shoddy workmanship.

    As for slave labor, how do you think we can help get people out of slave labor? Free trade! Slave labor expands in places that are also oppressive in their trade practices (for obvious reasons). The more free trade we open the more likely we are to break the back of slave labor. In China, labor costs are rising and while they are low, their rise is related to our trade with them.

    Free trade is one of the greatest equalizers in the world and benefits us. When we signed our biggest free trade agreement, our manufacturing output in our country skyrocketed benefiting all the countries involved.
     
  11. targus

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    Sorry, old man.

    I haven't learned to read and write alzheimers yet like you have. <g>

    Did I get the silly little grin thing right?
     
  12. HankD

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    It just seems the wrong time to be doing this when we are in our current plight of unemployment/underemployment, bailouts, golden parachutes, 15 trillion dollar debt, no budget and the money press running almost 24/7.

    As to the substandard Chinese steel fabrication, I am still leary. The second artilce said that the poor standards of the Chinese steel caused a construction delay until 2014. Perhaps even longer if more substandard materials are discovered.

    So true, it was caught and therefore delayed.

    But, all-around - it sticks in my craw.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  13. Ruiz

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    Actually, it is the perfect time to do this. If you want to get our economy growing, you must see it engage in some creative destruction, which is proven to help improve economies. To encourage an economy you must get rid of the mal-investment and engage in creative destruction which will result in more savings, lower prices, and then a spurring of the economy.

    So, this is the perfect time.
     
  14. HankD

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    You may very well be right Ruiz, but I'm not convinced.

    Perhaps you can give an historic example of a successful "ceative destruction" experience.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  15. Ruiz

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    Are you kidding me? The entire computer industry is a prime example of creative destruction. This has created millions of jobs and has spawned a myriad of other industries. Take the iPhone as just one example. Yes, the smart phone industry has exploded but much more than that. You now have app programmers, cell phone companies, data plans, entire sales lines, iPhone cover manufacturers and much more who have sprung up as a result of the iPhone. The iPhone did not merely destroy older cell phones, but they caused industries to spring up all around their creative destruction. The lower prices for the iPhone has revolutionized the phone industry. You can see similar happenings in the computer industry, automobile industry, clothing industry, etc...

    The theory espoused by a man named Joseph Schumpeter is required reading for most people getting an MBA or above. Schumpeter's law is partially what compelled Reagan's supply side economics and has been most attacked by people like Newt and Obama. However, it is evident that his theory is true and even economists I disagree with respect Schumpeter's theory.

    While Schumpeter's theory of economics is more broad than most students get into, few people disagree with the basic aspects of his law. Rather, every American generation has seen creative destruction and the result was wealth.

    I applaud creative destruction; I am a fan of creative destruction.
     
  16. HankD

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    OK thanks ruiz. I have been reading about Schumpeter and Creative Destruction since this discussion started. Yes, it's hidden in plain sight.

    I have mixed feelings. It does seem that pragmatic creative destruction is the natural outcome of the evolution of the Industrial Revolution (automobile replaces horse, electric light bulb replaces candle, etc) and not a brainchild of any one man.

    My formal education is theology (undergrad) and Information Technology (undergrad and graduate studies). Economics is not my strong suit.

    Personally, I never felt that I was destroying anything either as a software engineer or architect but that I was an innovator - adding, enhancing - but not destroying. The automobile replaced the horse in the realm of transportation but what did the computer replace? It is a tool.
    So far, probably the most powerful tool mankind has created.

    Although I will admit that I probably destroyed a lot of jobs and put a lot of people out of work with the IT systems I designed and installed.

    On another note, I might agree that socialism will eventually replace capitalism (per Schumpeter) but I personally wouldn't cheer it on.

    FWIW, I believe "over-population" (or rather population concentration) is a large factor leading to socialsm.

    Finally, alternative Energy providers would qualify as "creative destruction" entities - their endeavors would eventually destroy the need of fossil fuel by creating alternative means of energy.

    Not that I am opposed to "green" energy but Solyndra could be a model of things to come.

    I don't know that we can willy-nilly destroy a "what is" to creatively bring about a better "what could be" even if it appears to make some sense such as getting the issue ladened chinese involved in building our bridges.

    Timing is probably a key factor.

    True, the industrial revolution was quite successful in the realm of transportation (for instance) - horse to train to automobile to airplane, etc.

    WWI/WWII helped accelerate the "success" of the industrial revolution.

    But then again I guess that depends on one's definition of success.

    Thanks for the new reading path.

    Sorry for my rambling blatherings.

    HankD
     

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