Britney's transformation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001670;p=3#000037

    In the above link, I asked the following question:

    I was wondering if anyone could follow up on these questions and see if we can now start praising God for what he has done in Britney's life.
     
  2. blackbird

    blackbird
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    Nothin' yet here, Joseph! I live about 1 1/2 hours away from Britney's home town of Kentwood--and there ain't nobody there startin' any fresh rumors of conversion!!!

    But thinking about IMMEDIATE changes after conversion---

    (1) Zaccheus---"Behold, Lord!!! The half of my goods . . .!"

    (2) The demonic man of the Gadarenes---"dressed and in his right mind!"

    (3) The Samaritian woman at Jacob's well---"Come see a man . . .!"

    None of these "waited around" to fulfill contract obligations---you reckon??

    Your buddy,
    Blackbird
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    David,

    That is soooooooo true. I am, however, trying to give her the benifit of the doubt that maybe it will take her a little longer since she has lived in sin for so long and the change will be gradual. But, one would think after four to five days or so, that she would at least put on some clothes instead of flaunting herself like a hooker. If God is truly transforming her, surely she will want to make some changes eventually.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Well,

    Yet another day gone by. Any word about Britney's transformation? JohnV or HankD?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. BrianT

    BrianT
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    What's with the obsession over Britney? Why does this matter to you so much?
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Nothing really. Go back and read the entire link at the beginning of this thread and I think you will understand that I am merely debating with John V and Hank D. Just having a discussion. But, even further than that, I think it goes back to my distaste of phonies who use Jesus to boost their careers while they continue to spread their poison.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Will add Michael Jackson to this list. He just kicked out all the "Nation of Islam" (Black Muslim) and is returning to his roots. Right.

    When the career is faltering, we can see through that ploy. Like through Janet's dress.

    I give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt about their spiritual change. And I will not sit and wait for ME to be able to judge the change; God is checking the heart and HE is a better judge than I will ever be.

    (BTW, you know how HARD it is for a recovering pharisee to type this? I so want her to fall flat on her face so I can say "See" she was a phony and NOT a true godly person like I am. She is not worthy of God's mercy and grace like you or me.)
     
  8. Jim1999

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    Whilst I follow the gist of this discussion, I also think that we can be too hard on some so-called celebrities. For example, the country singer, Johnny Cash. Some would be critical about some of his associations and his activities. If what I read about his changed life is true, then he did as much or more than many ministers in engaging his peers in the Christian life. He helped many troubled souls along the way and stood firm for Jesus Christ and the gospel.

    Roy Rogers and Dale Evans also served the Lord quite nobly, and I am sure you can name more who did live for the Lord in the entertainment industry.

    Certainly there are questionable characters, but we have our share within the churches. We would do well to mind our own spiritual relationship with the Lord Jesus, and let our lights shine in this black, black world of all shades of darkness.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

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    Once again, spiritual maturity, and honesty, eloquently typed, and seared into my heart. Amen, Doc.
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Jim,

    When Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus, and changed him, did he continue killing Christians? I am not saying that he was absolutely perfect from that point on. But, I think the Bible is clear that the evidence of his salvation was easy to see. There was some change in him. And not only that, he went on to testify about the change God had made in his life in very open and public arenas. I don't think we see any of this happening with Britney. I would love nothing more than to see her repent and stop spreading her poison. It would mean MTV and the hounds of Hell have lost one more servant of destruction. But, I see no evidence of Godly fruit in her life as of yet.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. Jim1999

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    Joseph,
    I can't argue with what you say about this pop singer. I haven't seen anything to indicate any Christian influence in her life. We have a similar situation with a singer from near me, Avril Lavigne. She grew up in the Pentecostal Church here and used to sing in all the churches. Now she is in the limelight of pop singing, forget the churches, gospel singing and the lifestyle. I am waiting to see her eventual tattoo to keep up with the Jones'.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  12. BrianT

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    Not everyone has a "road to Damascus experience". I sure didn't. Some people take a giant leap in one moment, some take small steps over a longer time.
     
  13. Baptist Believer

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    Attending a worship service and being emotionally/spiritually touched (or manipulated) is not much of a career move.

    Your glee (or at least what is apparently a cocksure opinion) that God would not have mercy on that troubled young woman and gradually move her to wholeness is repugnant to the Spirit of Christ that welcomes needy sinners into abundant life.

    Your justifiable disgust at the way she prostitutes herself for money and fame seems to have turned into self-righteous judgment against her. The elder brother was angry at his prodigal younger brother and even more incensed when his Father showed his brother mercy. And it is clear that the "good" elder brother was farther from his Father's love than the rebellious son.

    I don't know if anything life-changing happened in her life, but time will tell. Since she has a whole staff of people promoting an image that she's not necessary in control of (she is bound by recording contracts and promotional contracts and people act "on her behalf" without explicit permission), it is a little soon to complain that the image on the Web site has not changed.

    Furthermore, if she did make a commitment to Christ and asked me for advice, I would suggest that she get away from the spotlight as much as possible and be careful about making too many public proclamations until she gets some maturity in her life. Christians are notorious for legalistically judging the faith of public figures. The working out of the Kingdom life in a new believer is a process that may start very slowly and take time to work out into the things that outsiders like to judge.

    I get the sense from most Christians that they are more interested in her clothing (or lack of clothing) than whether or not she is a believer. If she has committed to following Jesus, her wardrobe will change eventually. If her wardrobe changes but she does not commit her life to Christ, her modesty is of no gain to her.
     
  14. Baptist Believer

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    I'm fairly confident that Ms. Spears is not killing Christians.

    And just how long has it been? A week? Are you friends with her and have you talked with her this week to ask what's going on in her life?

    Give her a break. For all you know, your very public posts here are being forwarded to her by some unwitting lackey of the evil one.

    I'm glad you weren't judging me when I committed my life to Christ. I did have one immediate noticable change - I stopped swearing immediately. But other than that, there was not many noticable external changes for several years. (I also didn't carry the burden of having to live our my life before obsessive fans and naysayers, often the butt of comedian's jokes and the topic of supermarket scandalsheets.) The last thing I would have needed would be Christians slamming me for my faults and sins instead of guiding me in discipleship.

    The gospel is not about morality, it is about life in Christ. With life in Christ comes morality but it is a side-effect of what God is doing in us, not the focus of our discipleship.
     
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Which is why I am patiently waiting and watching as I try to give her the benefit of the doubt. It has been a week and still no change, no testimony, no evidence of God in her life. But, I am willing to rejoice once she does show evidence of God working in her life.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Attending a worship service and being emotionally/spiritually touched (or manipulated) is not much of a career move.

    Your glee (or at least what is apparently a cocksure opinion) that God would not have mercy on that troubled young woman and gradually move her to wholeness is repugnant to the Spirit of Christ that welcomes needy sinners into abundant life.

    Your justifiable disgust at the way she prostitutes herself for money and fame seems to have turned into self-righteous judgment against her. The elder brother was angry at his prodigal younger brother and even more incensed when his Father showed his brother mercy. And it is clear that the "good" elder brother was farther from his Father's love than the rebellious son.

    I don't know if anything life-changing happened in her life, but time will tell. Since she has a whole staff of people promoting an image that she's not necessary in control of (she is bound by recording contracts and promotional contracts and people act "on her behalf" without explicit permission), it is a little soon to complain that the image on the Web site has not changed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]There is no glee, only a willingness to accept reality and look at the evidence that reveals the truth. As many managers as she does have and contracts, I do think she can still choose what she wears. She can also choose what she write for her songs. She can fullfill her contracts without glorify promiscuous sex. She also still has freedom of speech and could get on any celebrity tv show at any time and proclaim her love for Christ and talk about what God has done for her. There are no contractual agreements preventing her from doing that. Your arguments are fairly shallow as I have come to expect from you.

    Furthermore, if she did make a commitment to Christ and asked me for advice, I would suggest that she get away from the spotlight as much as possible and be careful about making too many public proclamations until she gets some maturity in her life.[/QUOTE]

    She would then be following the Biblical example of whom? Of yeah, I forgot, the Bible has never really mattered that much to you. My mistake. Tell me, do you think your advice would be God honoring and Biblical. Please explain. Is that what Paul did? Is that what the Samaritan Woman at the well did? You might want to read your Bible a little more and be open for the Holy Spirit to change your heart.

    Christians are notorious for legalistically judging the faith of public figures. The working out of the Kingdom life in a new believer is a process that may start very slowly and take time to work out into the things that outsiders like to judge.[/QUOTE]

    My goodness, I am thinking that the early Christians had every reason to be suspicious and judgmental of Paul when he converted. And yet, he went to them and testified rather openly, even unto the point of death. I think I remember reading somewhere where Jesus said something about not worrying about those who can only kill the body but not the soul. Perhaps you should become more Christ-centered in your thinking instead of being so self-centered.

    I get the sense from most Christians that they are more interested in her clothing (or lack of clothing) than whether or not she is a believer. If she has committed to following Jesus, her wardrobe will change eventually. If her wardrobe changes but she does not commit her life to Christ, her modesty is of no gain to her. [/QUOTE]

    I look forward to seeing the evidence of her conversion soon. Truthfully, and honestly, I am skeptical. But I am open to seeing the miraculous change that only God could do in her life. And when it does happen, I will rejoice along with you. But, right now, I see nothing to rejoice about the life of Britney Spears.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    You also didn't have to endure everything Paul did. Suspicion from the Christians. Hatred from the Jews. Persecution and even death. My goodness, what Britney faces just doesn't seem that bad anymore. Of course, Paul did endure. But, he did not do it of his own accord. It was the power of God working through his life. And when God changes you, the change is obvious. So far, with Britney, there is no change whatsoever.

    The gospel is not about morality, it is about life in Christ. With life in Christ comes morality but it is a side-effect of what God is doing in us, not the focus of our discipleship. [/QUOTE]

    This is true. This is Biblical. When God comes in, there will be change becasue God does not fail. Faith without works is dead. If you say some have faith, others have works. James says he will show you his faith by his works. The good works are the evidence of the power of God working in your life.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. BillyMac

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    Once again, spiritual maturity, and honesty, eloquently typed, and seared into my heart. Amen, Doc. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for pointing this out. I missed it and the paragraph above it. As I re-read the whole post I realized that there is one who reflects Christ on these boards afterall. Not that there aren't others. There are indeed many. But there are those too who would judge another's action by filtering those actions through themselves rather than filtering them through Christ Jesus.

    Only God can see the heart of this young woman and it may never be apparent to any of us what her real purpose is in life as viewed through her Christian calling. It could be that her calling is meant to be blinded to us, because our calling is different. I do know this much, if I was called to witness to the Hollywood crowd how receptive would Hollywood be to one who wasn't one of them???

    How much of a witness would she be where she is if it weren't for her position there within that dark dark place??? Who am I to judge her??? Who are any of you to do the same???

    To Dr. Bob Griffin,
    The same Holy Spirit that revealed to you what you posted here, revealed to me too that you have posted what is true and correct and honorable and pure. I am pleased that we are brothers. There is wisdom in your words, and I got the message. Thank you.
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Besides yourself, I am assuming?

    Not that there aren't others. There are indeed many. But there are those too who would judge another's action by filtering those actions through themselves rather than filtering them through Christ Jesus.[/QUOTE]

    I typically use the Bible as my standard. What do you use for your when judging right or wrong, spiritual revival or emotional breakdown, etc...?

    Only God can see the heart of this young woman and it may never be apparent to any of us what her real purpose is in life as viewed through her Christian calling. It could be that her calling is meant to be blinded to us, because our calling is different.[/QUOTE]

    Evidence from Scripture? The ones I have read about who were saved in Scripture, the change was pretty obvious and everyone knew where their heart was because they were not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and boldly proclaimed the good news instead of the filth of this world. Perhaps, there is a part of scripture I have missed where they went the way you described in your post with a hidden calling / purpose. Please let me know if I missed something and let me know where it is.

    I do know this much, if I was called to witness to the Hollywood crowd how receptive would Hollywood be to one who wasn't one of them???

    How much of a witness would she be where she is if it weren't for her position there within that dark dark place??? Who am I to judge her??? Who are any of you to do the same???
    [/QUOTE]

    I somewhat agree with you here. She certainly has built closer relationship with people in Hollywood than I probably ever will. As a matter of fact, she is in a position to not only influence people inside Hollywood, but also, with her fame, those all over the world. Too bad she is not using that influence to bring people to Christ. There is no testimony, only vulgarity. I look forward to the day when she repents and God truly does transform her. Right now, this is just not happening. Sorry if that sounds judgmental, but it is true.

    I look forward to seeing your Biblical responses.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. Baptist Believer

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    And how many public appearances has she made since last weekend?



    And how many songs has she written, recorded, reproduced and distributed since last weekend?



    In what manner has she personally glorified promiscuous sex since last weekend?



    Believe it or not, there are a limited number of guest slots for reputable celebrity-driven shows (think Jay Leno, David Letterman or Oprah) and there is an enormous amount of competition to get those slots. It is very unlikely she could get on a show this quickly to talk about her faith, even if she was so inclined to do it.



    Um, yeah… :rolleyes: At least I recognize that it would be difficult to completely create a new collection of songs from scratch and get them out, distributed to media outlets and receive airplay in less than one week. (It’s going to take nearly a week for my new hard drive to get here and they had that ready to go when I ordered it last Tuesday. :D )

    Sounds like you aren’t going to worry about facts and availability of evidence in your rush to judge the reality of anything God may have done in her life.

    She would then be following the Biblical example of whom? Of yeah, I forgot, the Bible has never really mattered that much to you. My mistake. </font>[/QUOTE]I certainly hope that you have mistaken me for someone else because your allegation that ‘the Bible has never really mattered that much to me’ is a VICIOUS AND REPREHENSIBLE LIE. You are doing the work of the evil one when you falsely accuse your brothers. While I can understand that you and I might understand portions of the scriptures differently, where do you get off thinking that you somehow know my attitude toward the scriptures?! You false judgment of me only underscores the whole problem of making judgments of people with whom you have had no communication and are not available here to explain/defend themselves.



    Yes.

    After his conversion, Paul went to Arabia, the reason and duration of his trip is not clearly explained, and he spent three years after his conversion (presumably growing in faith and knowledge of Christ) before traveling extensively on his gospel missions. I certainly think he was actively preaching and ministering, but he apparently took the time to become grounded in his faith before becoming the leading spokesman for the Christian among the Gentiles.



    As far as I can tell, she told of her encounter with Jesus within her community and they visited Jesus themselves. (see John 4:30) Her testimony motivated people to seek Him. (see John 4:39)

    As far as I know, the Samaritan woman was not under intense media scrutiny by television tabloid shows looking for scandals or ways to exploit her popularity for their ratings – the circumstances are quite different. Many Christians today would jump at the chance to criticize her for any real or perceived gaps in theology, spiritual immaturity or failures. You willingness to false judge me demonstrates the problem.

    I’ll do that. I certainly hope you’ll do the same.

    My goodness, I am thinking that the early Christians had every reason to be suspicious and judgmental of Paul when he converted. </font>[/QUOTE]Suspicious? Yes. Judgmental? No.

    I hardly think that if Ms. Spears’ life was changed that she would be at risk of her life. If she has been converted, I expect to her something from her over the coming weeks and months. Of course, it has been only a week.

    That’s excellent advice for both of us.

    I have no idea if anything has changed in her life. If she had some sort of religious/emotional experience at that church, I strongly suspect the Holy Spirit may be dealing with her. That may be her first tentative step toward God. I can be find pleasure in that since I have faith that God is listening to the prayers of His people who are praying for her.

    Time will tell. But until then, we are doing the work of the enemy by being so cynical about the possibility that God might actually extend grace to her. In our age and culture, cynicism and skepticism is often mistaken for wisdom and maturity, but it is simply the worst of our fallen nature – an expression of anti-faith. I am a recovering cynic and I urge you to join me and gain faith in the power, healing and redemption of God’s Kingdom in this world.
     

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