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Bro.Cloud on Southern Baptist Theological Seminary & New Evangelicalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Gregory Perry Sr., Nov 7, 2005.

  1. nate

    nate New Member

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    Cloud is very "prideful". I have listened to several of his audio sermons and he claims he can go to Promise Keepers and hear what everyone else can't. That they deny the innerancy of Scripture and other things. I have also emailed him personally and questioned some of his views and he emailed back and told me to purchase his book [​IMG] . I would trust David Cloud as far as I could throw him.
    Nate
     
  2. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    That's your opinion based on your perceptions. You are most certainly entitled to it. However, how do we, the readers of this thread, know that you are not doing to Cloud what you say he did to Promise Keepers? What one sees many times is what he wants to see. Cloud probably gets a lot of e-mails and doesn't have the time or inclination to answer all of them. One could never get anything done if he did. ;)
     
  3. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Most of the readers, except for a few, on this thread have picked up my drift by now. You’ve seen me do the same elsewhere. I loathe ad hominem attacks. At times, I have been accused, although I think in the main wrongly so, of such attacks myself. Admittedly, there is a fine chalk line between hard debate and personal attack. When upon occasion I have stepped over the line, I have made public or private application for forgiveness as appropriate. I suppose that we all error on the side of zeal occasionally.

    However, there is a definable difference, I think, between taking a hard line and attacking the individual. One appeals to reason and argument whereas the other appeals to the emotion or sentiment toward the person. Blasting a person’s ideas or actions or statements is fair fighting. If you can’t take being hit, don’t get in the ring. Sarcasm and ridicule, IMHO, are fair blows if directed toward one’s actions or statements, not the person. However, it is not proper to attack the person by questioning his motivation or thoughts, his sincerity or integrity, his character, etc. Words and behavior are observable so that we can comment upon these but one’s thoughts are beyond our knowing. In other words, we can judge words and actions but we cannot judge the person. As Christians, we are not to intrude into this domain and judge. God alone knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts; this sphere is reserved for Him only to judge.

    There appears to be a basic underlying premise from which some operate on this board. If a person differs from us beyond certain degrees of latitude, we judge him to be a no account sleaze ball whose person is fair game for our scorn. We make character judgments and impugn his integrity, his manhood, his motives, his patriotism and his very mental processes. This is wrong. When one makes an attack on another’s character, it speaks more about his own character than the one he assails.

    IMHO, we are attacking David Cloud because he is David Cloud rather than refuting his positions. We cannot honestly know whether David Cloud’s hard line stances are from spite or conviction. If we are indeed loving Christians, then we are not prone to think evil of our brother (I Corinthians 13:4-7) even though his position may irritate us to no end. Let’s suppose hypothetically that David Cloud is guilt of all that he has been accused, is there is any warrant for us doing wrong in deriding his character and person?
     
  4. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    IMHO, this thread quickly degenerated into a roasting of David Cloud rather than the intelligent debate of his opinions. In regard to the original honest question, please allow me to attempt an injection of new life into this discussion and turn it toward a more profitable direction by making some observations that are open to agreement, disagreement, or debate.

    1. David Cloud is a hard-line independent Baptist separatist who holds a theological position similar to hard-core Fundamentalism of the 1970-80’s.
    2. Cloud is definitely not SBC and has little sympathy for the SBC. His view of the SBC is pretty similar to those independent Baptists who came out of the Convention twenty to thirty years ago. The conservative resurgence has not changed his perception of the SBC.
    3. David Cloud is dogmatic in his theology with high walls separating Fundamentalists from Evangelicals, New Evangelicals, Liberals, Modernists, Charismatics, etc. He sees the theological world in distinct lines of black and white with no shades of gray.
    4. David Cloud’s definition and characteristics of New Evangelicalism are different from most posters on this thread. His definition of Fundamentalism is narrow and exclusive whereas his definition of New Evangelicalism is broad and inclusive.
    5. David Cloud sees the SBC as largely New Evangelical or tends to be. Since SBTS is SBC, it is no wonder that he finds New Evangelical tendencies there.

    Therefore, I am not surprised that David Cloud sees New Evangelical tendencies at SBTS. He would say the same about other evangelical seminaries such as NOBTS, SEBTS, SWBTS, DTS, CIU, LU, etc. It is consistent with his theological perspective. He is probably not entirely happy with BJU (KJV issue), although one of his sons attends there, and PCC (Bill Gothard and music).

    You gotta be a broad minded fellow like me to understand these guys! :cool: [​IMG]
     
  5. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Thank you Paid...it is nice to see someone that can step back from all the mudslinging and give an objective opinion on something.I personally believe that your review of bro.Cloud is correct.Even though I'm currently a member of an SBC church(gasp!!!!),my background is IFB and I'm simply where I believe God wants me at this point in my life.I find myself in much agreement with much of what Bro.Cloud says.I think that in all things pertaining to standards and our walk with the Lord we should seek to honor God in all we say and do.Much of what the "religious" world allows today has nothing to do with being "biblical" and living lives pure and seperated unto the Lord.I personally believe that Bro.Cloud calls it like he sees it no matter who the group may be....be it IFB's,or SBC's...or whoever.Holiness tends to be a high standard.Far too many churches and groups today are caving in to this godless culture and trying to appeal to the world by being more like it....it will NEVER bear Godly fruit.If we are BROAD-minded on the NARROW-way..we may fall off the edge into the ditch! Can't have it both ways!

    Greg Sr.
     
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well said, Paidagogos. [​IMG]
     
  7. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    It seems that you are implying that Cloud's motivation is his feeling of superiority, not his theological beliefs? Am I correct? How do you know? It is ironic that Cloud who is accused of a bitter and venomous spirit is himself the subject of prejudice and acrimonious attacks. My point was simply that Cloud and Geisler both seem to hold the same position toward the ETS and its failure to expel members holding Open Theology views. </font>[/QUOTE] And my point is that Cloud comes off very much like the "mama" character on The Waterboy... he thinks he is right about everything and anyone who disagrees with him isn't just wrong... they're "da debil".

    From my reading, Geisler doesn't have a habit of making disagreements with his belief personal... though he is a far better scholar and theologian than Cloud.

    Sure. Read his website.
    Me too.
    Cloud is hardly a defenseless underdog. He has a great number of people who take his e-mail reports and website about as serious as they do scripture.

    I've heard "Brother Cloud said..." numerous times as a reference to authority.
    I consider myself very much a "hard-core Fundamentalist" and would certainly argue that Cloud is not. If the Bible says it, I believe it. If it doesn't... then one always has their prerogative to be wrong.

    I don't think I have approached very many debates on this site where anything less would be said about me.
    I am not sure what you are getting at. You can disagree with someone vehemently without making them part of a satanic plot or questioning their spirituality.

    I am intolerant of three things concerning Cloud: 1) His dishonesty in the way he presents his case, 2) his false doctrines, and 3) his lack of grace when approaching those he deems to be in error.

    He certainly has a right to his opinion and "dogma"... as others have a right to call him on his beliefs and behavior.

    I advocate 0% tolerance of false doctrines, dogmas, and teaching. But we still have a responsibility to be gracious and careful in the way we approach those who disagree with us.
    I don't. I'm not really concerned with those outside the camp too much... other than to the end that they might harm or deceive those within the camp.
    I guess that's you. OK by me anyway.

    I am not tolerant of false teachings. I try to be very tolerant of people and especially professing Christians. The closer to home they are... the more direct I will usually be. Most of us are much more direct and open with our own families than we are with others... same here.

    I hate errors that erode the fundamentalists' core value- the supremacy of scripture- above all others.
     
  8. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    BTW, I agree with both of these men. If an organization will fellowship with an open theist then a biblical fundamentalist has an absolute obligation to forcefully confront the error and withdraw if no action is taken.
     
  9. bobbyd

    bobbyd New Member

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    OK, when i started at SBTS Dr. Mohler was cleaning things up there and the liberals were proclaiming it a conservative mecca where closed minds can gather for indoctrination.

    Now i'm reading that the fundamentalist are calling SBTS at best New Evangelical, but possibly too progressive/liberal to truly be considered conservative?

    They don't like us on the left or right...hmm, maybe we are doing something right there.

    My 2 cents,
    in HIS grip
    bobby
     
  10. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    History cannot be changed, but institutional theology and direction can. Is America to be condemened perpetually because she once allowed slavery? Is the SBC to be condemned perpetually because years ago some of its leaders were liberal? Of course not.

    Sorry I've been away...my warnings about this thread were heeded, then unheeded. Therefore, reprise the theme song and roll the credits.
     
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