Budget Time

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by SouthernBaptistBoy, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. SouthernBaptistBoy

    SouthernBaptistBoy
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    Hi, [​IMG]

    I have been visiting church around town to pick out the one I want to join. Well last night at one I have been going to they had there business meeting after church. Maybe you guys that are Preachers feel ok about this budget, but I have a problem with it. Is it just me? am I being to Hard? Is this a normal budget as far as distribution of the budget?

    total = $986,013.
    about 46% goes to all church salaries which is about 11 and employee benefits.
    about 16% goes to missions.
    3.5% to education
    1.5% to childrens ministeries
    the other 33% is divided into various programs.

    But my concern is the amount for salaries and the little for education, children and no bus ministry at all.

    What say you?
     
  2. Helen

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    That's over $34,000 for education and over $14,700 for children's ministries.

    That's pretty darn good!

    And only a few hundred dollars short of $158,000 for missions. That's great!

    This must be a very large church!
     
  3. jonmagee

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    Is it normal in American churches not to treat church business as confidential to the members?
    yours, Jon
     
  4. SouthernBaptistBoy

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    Hi Helen,

    It is a fairly large church. I was just curious about the placement of the money. But, maybe I am being to hard about it. But I really did want some others input just so I could tell myself to shut up or go visit another church.

    Thanks again.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    That's about 450,000 for salaries and benefits for 11 employees, an average of just over 41,000 a person. When you include health care for families, and graduated pay for education and length of service, that is not unreasonable to me at all. At a large church (which I would guess this one is between 500-700), it is not uncommon nor unrealistic to have a pastor with many years of experience making a a good wage and his staff members paid accordingly. As for education, most churches education budgets are things like SS curriculum and the children's weekly program (if you have one). There is only so much money you can spend on that. This doesn't seem out of balance to me.

    [ November 14, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  6. SouthernBaptistBoy

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    Thank you so much. Now I feel bad for posting the topic. But, I feel better about the budget and that was the purpose for the post in the first place. [​IMG]
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Personally, I would see red flags, too, from that sort of budget. And that is why I am so irritated with so many of our churches.

    Don't want to vent, but typical church will spend 40% of income on salary packages and 40% on facilities (motgage, upkeep, utilities). And in some, this is low.

    Do the math. How much is then going into the "ministry" per se? Wonder why we have trouble supporting missionaries? Wonder why our own youth, outreach programs and ministries in our own church are so minimal?

    I am interim. I accept very little reimbursement for my time and ministry, but DO appreciate it!! The new senior pastor will get $55+ and the new assoc. pastor will get $38+. That is $93K out of a budget of less than $170k.

    Fits the % above, doesn't it?
     
  8. Bible Believing Bill

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    I have a question about how some other churches budget missions. I see it included in the outline SouthernBaptistBoy gave. Do most churches support missions out of the general fund and tithes, or do they have an entirely seperate missions fund that does not use tithes?

    Bill
     
  9. SaggyWoman

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    We support missions both ways. A certain percentage, plus special offerings. Oh, and we have a line item for volunteer missions.
     
  10. Rev. Joshua

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    Bob, I don't know what the cost of living is where you are, but here in Atlanta 55k does not go very far. A church needs a skilled, trained pastor who can focus their energies on the needs of a congregation. That's a fair living wage for an educated professional, and far less than they would have made if they had gone to law school or medical school instead of seminary.

    About half of the church budget going to salaries seems the norm to me. In most small businesses I've seen, payroll is the biggest chunk of the accounts payable, and most churches are getting their clergy at bargain-basement prices.

    Joshua
     
  11. Rev. Joshua

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    In my experience church budgets are always open information. It's standard procedure to request a copy of it when you're interviewing for a position - and active laypeople usually request one before joining.

    Joshua
     
  12. TaterTot

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    WEll, this may seem strange, but the rural SBC church my husband pastors has no budget. We give a percentage to the Cooperative Program and to local missions, but other "inhouse" expenses are not budgeted. We have never thought this could work, but it does. If there is a need, the person in charge of the particular ministry (say, the bus ministry needs something) gets it done. We never have squabbles over money. We have been here almost 3 years and it still amazes us.
     
  13. Bible-boy

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    Regarding the Pastor's salary being discussed here, do you all think that the following verses apply at all?

    "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
    For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain,' and, 'The laborer is worthy of his wages'" (1 Timothy 5:17-18, NKJV).

    What do you all think?
     
  14. jonmagee

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    Here's another verse:

    "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight therof, not by constraint, but willingly;NOT FOR FILTHY LUCRE (MONEY), but of a ready mind" (i Peter 5 v2)

    Verses quoted previously may exhort church members in THEIR attitude but this verse clearly speaks of what the pastors attitude should be.

    I am speaking as a Pastor who has had the added responsibility of raising FIVE children. The above verse featured prominently in my calling as I gave up a well paid job to respond IN FAITH to the calling of God! As such, I have always made it known to any church that my discernment of a call to a church is not determined by finance.

    In my current position, a small church with no wage earners, yet still giving to the budget sacrificially, it is appropriate for me to take 50% of what the national denomination lays down as the minimum.
    That may not be appropriate in every church, but if it is a call of God should finance be such a high criteria from the pastors perspective?

    yours, Jon
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Why are these things not ministry??? It seems that if there is anything that is "ministry" is the staff. After all (and unfortunately), they are doing the ministering. Facilities ... well, it is nice to have a place to assemble. I am not suggesting that they be extravagant. I think they should fit the community.

    Perhaps the problem is not the percentages of the church budget that go to these things but the percentage of the people's budgets that go to the church. Nothing would solve this problem easier than the members giving more.

    In most churches with these kind of budgets, the youth budget is more than sufficient, as is the music budget, the education budget, etc. In most of these churches, the kids are not going without curriculum so that these other things can be met.

    As for missions, that is a concern for me. But I have seen the churches that have 50% going to missions (at $25/month) while the pastor can't make ends meet and drives a 10 year old car. That is simply wrong. The answer again is for the people to step up to the plate. Everyone wants the church to be sacrificial and missions minded, with a dynamic youth program. But they don't want to give up their second or third car, the boat; they don't want to cut their two week vacation to one week to support missions. They want their pastor to be sacrificial in his living so they make sure he is by paying him way less than what he should be paid.

    Bottom line, the problem starts with the people and their giving.
     
  16. donnA

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    What I see a problem with is that we are discussing he budget of a church that noone here is a memeber of. To me this borders on gossip.
     
  17. jonmagee

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    you are right Katie
    yours, Jon
     
  18. jcrowe

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    I don't see this as gossip in any way. I see it as a discussion on how a church (which we all are part of somewhere) should handle the money that God has intrusted us with.
     
  19. jonmagee

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    That would be true if it was a hypothetical example given but if you read the opening lines we will discover we are being asked about one specific local church
    yours, Jon.
     
  20. donnA

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    since none of us is a member of the church in question, then no it is not our business unless you are sending money to them. that would be like saying we need to answer to you personally what we do with our mony at my church, and since you aren't a member, nor do you send us money it would be none of your business. How about answering to us how much you tithe and how much your income is so we can figure it up what percentage you are tithing, what charietys do you give too, and how much, since you are a part of the body of Christ we have a right to see a finacial statement from you.
    Or is it none of our business.
    Nope we have no real purpose to discuss this churches money, it is gossip.
     

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