Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

Thank you brother.

 

I appreciate it also. There is
no need to 'nuke an ally for Jesus' today.

Church mouse guy: " ... you and Ed seem to think that
Jesus would not give them a Koran ... "

Strange, i haven't answered your question yet but you
know what the answer is going to be? I don't think so.
Why do i need to post if you are going to divine
my posts ahead of time?

I predict the way we treat Muslims today will be the
way Americans are treated in the coming Tribulation period. </font>[/QUOTE]What a empty statement, Ed. First you assert that you know WWJD and then you say that the way we treat Muslims is the way Anti-Christ will treat us during the Tribulation when you yourself have already assumed that you will be raptured out. Will you apostate if your theology is wrong? How can such a weak faith stand up to the Anti-Christ? Ed, you are better than Bill Clinton giving a deposition. More likely your treatment of conservatives shows what the tribulation will be like. Just what makes you think, Ed, that Anti-Christ is going to abide by any set of rules or precedents? That is total nonsense.

The point of all this, Ed, is that it is a secular prison run by secular authorities and has no spiritual rules because it passes out the devil's book to the prisoners which has to make for a very oppressive spiritual atmosphere--like being with a bunch of liberals 24/7. Then when some minor incidents occur, you and Newsweek and others like you want to make it an international cause even though it only inflames the situation for no good reason.

Your point is wrong, Ed, wrong.

You are too young to remember, but during the war it was said, "Loose lips sink ships."

 

"...is that it is a secular prison run by secular authorities and has no spiritual rules because it passes out the devil's book to the prisoners which has to make for a very oppressive spiritual atmosphere..."

Gee...who's disputing that? So why did you go from that to saying that I would pass out a Koran and walk away when I am a Christian? Either you lied or you have no reading comprehension ability whatsoever.

"...during the war it was said, "Loose lips sink ships." Oh I believe you...I truly do.

 

Amen, Brother King James -- Preach it! </font>[/QUOTE]Same response again: The terrorist detainees are NOT being tortured and I haven't suggested that they should be. I have made that very clear in my postings on this matter. It should be easy to comprehend.

 

Panties on the head in a chilly room, perhaps ?

 

Dragoon68: //Same response again: The terrorist detainees
are NOT being tortured and I haven't suggested
that they should be. I have made that very clear
in my postings on this matter. It should be easy
to comprehend.//

Please don't follow the blind leading of CMG.
I only post in the evenings and early in the morning.
The report is not about the terrorist detainees
being tortured. THe discussion is not about the
terorist detainees at Gitmo being tortured.
The news article was about shameful humiliation being
committed by representatives of the US Government who
where hired to DEFEND THE USoFA from it's enemys.
Sorry, humiliation is NOT a way to defend ourselves from
our enemies. This humiliation cannot even be described on
this FAMILY BOARD -- it suffices to say it is un-American.
People who indulge in this sort of retrobate behavior
should be denied the rights of Americans until they have
paid their time in jail. Hopefully they won't get in
a jail where the jailers have taken over and they get
in turn humiliated. Torture and humiliation are NOT
American family vitutues.

 

I tend to be original in my expressions and don't need to follow the lead of anyone's postings. However, I agree with a lot of what Church Mouse Guy has written just like I agree with things you have written elsewhere on other topics. On this topic, I think Church Mouse Guy makes a lot of good points as do several others.

Then you should have no problem agreeing that the terrorists are NOT being tortured. You should stop using that word to describe the actions reported. By using the word "torture" you imply that this practice needs to be stopped when it fact it has never started. By using it you associate that conduct with people that have not had and would not have any part of it.

The Washington Post article, true to expectations, attempts to connect "torture", "abuse", and "humiliation" at Abu Ghraib to Gitmo and vice versa. It grabs a few facts here and there and strings them together into a story to generate "outrage". It seeks out the morsels that generate the most consumer interest and sells the most product. That is the "blind leading" we all need to be wary of.

The US government and the US military do not condone nor permit torture of prisoners of war or other detainees such as terrorists. The acts were committed by persons in the service of our nation but they remain responsible for their conduct because it was not according to policy, doctrine, regulations, or law. Persons in command of these people have also been held accountable for not properly overseeing their subordinates and preventing conditions which may have contributed to the problems.

The military is also strengthening its doctrine for handling of all internees including some of the potentially confusing - at least to some - areas of responsibility. The proponent centers for this doctrine take this matter very seriously and strive hard to provide the best guidance possible to commanders and troops in the field.

The military and the government should be commended for doing a good job of addressing the problems even before they became widely known to the public.

The persons responsible for the actions at the Abu Ghraib prison have already been brought to justice by our military. There's nothing new in the worn out story. That justice has been one of due process so it has taken time. For those convicted, the punishment has varied according to the nature of their offenses. The "ring leader" is serving a ten year prison term. The brigade commander was demoted from General to Colonel which essential ends her career.

The vast majority of military troops - leaders and followers - do not and would not condone any of the foolish that went on at Abu Ghriab by a handful of misfits gone wild. They would also recognize, from a purely practical standpoint, that such conduct is most probably counterproductive to successful interrogation.

Some of those guilty have tried to use the bogus excuse that they were forced to do these things but that hasn't held up in their trails. That never does hold water because it's nothing more than an attempt to pass blame to others.

Torture is not a American virtue nor is it an American practice. The type of "humiliation" - let's call them "sexually oriented pranks" - to which you may be referring were not within the law and are not part of military doctrine for handling any class of prisoners.

On the other hand, a lot of what is now getting lumped into "humiliation" of prisoners is permitted by law and regulation. They are approved interrogation techniques. They may be "uncomfortable" to some who don't understand them. Being interrogated is in itself humiliating. Setting up conditions for interrogation involve breaking down the will to resist interrogation. It's not a pleasant process. It might do some a bit of good to see first hand what's involved and to understand the true nature of the enemy we face.

Let's not get these two different categories of actions classified by the same descriptor. Legal interrogation techniques are not the same as "sexually oriented pranks" and certainly not the same as "torture". We need to put all these things into proper context and call them what they are and not what they're not.

 

Church mouse guy: "Just what makes you think, Ed, that Anti-Christ is going to abide by any set of rules or precedents? That is total nonsense."

Yes, Sir, you are correct, that is total nonsense.
So why did you place it on the table? Why did you
bring up total nonsense? I know of nothing i said
anywhere near related to this total nonsense you brought
to the table

 

Ed: //I predict the way we treat Muslims today will be the
way Americans are treated in the coming Tribulation period.

Church mouse guy: //What a empty statement, Ed.//

You disagree with me. To bad you couldn't arge yourself
out of a paper sack

Church mouse guy: // First you assert that you know WWJD ... //

I made no such assertion. If i did, feel welcome to
quote it. In fact, you jumpped to another conclusion.

Church mouse guy: // ... and then you say that the way we treat Muslims is the way Anti-Christ will treat us during the Tribulation when you yourself have already assumed that you will be raptured out.//

I made no such assumption. I can prove the rapture/resurrection is
before the Tribulation Period, the 70th week of Daniel -- I can
prove it from scripture and in detail. This is a far cry from
an assumption.

Church mouse guy: //Will you apostate if your theology is wrong? How can such a weak faith stand up to the Anti-Christ?//

I have an inner strength that comes from God Himself.
I am not going into the Tribulation period. The Tribulation
period is hell brought to earth. If you don't understand watch
the ending of 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" again.

I just hope if you go into the Tribulation Period, you have
the OSAS = once saved, always saved, protection. You will
deny Christ under torture and humiliation. But God has already
saved you - Satan's minions can't made you unsaved -
all they can do is torture and humiliate you.

Church mouse guy: //You are too young to remember, but during
the war it was said, "Loose lips sink ships."//

I note you were 5 years old when the war ended, i was only 3.

 

Your logical circumventions too slick for me to get a grip on but I am right on one fact that you have admitted and that is that you are too young to remember that Loose Lips Sink Ships because you yourself said, "I note you were 5 years old when the war ended, i was only 3." Think that the rapture will remove you before the ship of state sinks?

 

Church mouse guy: "Your logical circumventions too slick for me to get a grip on ... "

tee hee! You must understand not everybody understands
logic and even less actually us it

Church mouse guy: "Think that the rapture will remove you before the ship of state sinks?"

I think what i think on that matter is moot.
I believe the rapture can happen before the ship of state
sinks. I belive the rapture can happen after the ship of
state stinks. I believe the rapture could happen 100 years
after WW3. I do know this, if the rapture happens after WW3
then the tribulation period (the worse thing that every
happens on earth) will have to be worse than WW3.

Mat 24:21 (KJV1611 Edition):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.

BTW, Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values.
I am not real concerned with the the treatment of a few hundred
misplaced terrorists. I am concerned about the mal-adjustment
of some alledged Americna citizens. The Torture (if there
is any) and the humiliation (which was found at gitmo) RUINS
perfectly good Americans for the rest of their lives.

Yes, i was one of those in the public schools that was trying
to get rid of hazing in the early 1970s.

 

See, no one ever said that torture and humiliation wfere American Family values so that is a strawman to an extent. The incidents in Cuba were so minor that it is a model prison in every respect and much better run than the Indiana prisons where prisoners are raped nearly automatically. We also could conclude that the murderers in Cuba enjoy a higher standard of living than many thousands of Americans in terms of sanitation, diet, and medical care.

Of course, you continue to glide by the fact that the USA has decided to allow torture in emergencies such as the case that I cited to you before wherein Islamofascists were ready to detonate an atomic bomb in central Oklahoma and there was only a limited number of minutes in which to obtain information in order to stop it.

FDR shot German spies who landed during WW II on Long Island and at Jacksonville, Florida. Bush really has failed to protect the nation by his refusal to shoot these men in Cuba. FDR also took the step of putting tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans in government prison camps in isolated areas--something you Democrats ignore when you talk about human rights.

Really, Ed, you should drop this subject because the evidence of abuse in Cuba is less than what you Democrats did under FDR. You are not going to destroy Bush along this line in spite of your leftist political dreams.

 

church mouse guy: "The incidents in Cuba were so minor that
it is a model prison in every respect and much better run
than the Indiana prisons where prisoners are raped nearly automatically."

Yes, confession is good for your soul.
You have solutions to international problems and can't begin
to solve (and may even be ignoring the problem) local
problems. Why don't the citizens of Indiana take control
of their prisoners?

Church mouse guy: "Really, Ed, you should drop this subject because
the evidence of abuse in Cuba is less than what you Democrats did under FDR."

Your main form of exercise is jumping to conclusions?
I am not now nor have i ever been a Democrat.

Church mouse guy: "You are not going to destroy Bush ...
I am a supported of President Bush.
Conclusion jumped to: i am out to destroy Bush.

Church mouse guy: " ... along this line in spite of your leftist political dreams."

I am a conservative. Conclusion jumped to: I am a political leftist.

You need to find about about the flavors of American politics. It is being
discussed along with the flavors of American religion at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/10/5238/3.html

Blind guide to Moderate and Liberal (Page 3)

over in the All other Discussions (for Baptists).

Church mouse guy: "See, no one ever said that torture and humiliation were American Family values so that is a strawman to an extent."

I have no problem with that being a strawman.
But it is a true strawman.
The discussion here is about the humiliation of prisoners in
Gitmo, especially the GOVERNMENT REPORTED sexual hijinks.
Recall that the Americans at Gitmo are our future leaders.
And i will never vote for a humiliator for my president.
IMHO Americans who practice such perverted humiliation are contaminated.
A rotten apple will contaminate whole barrels of apples

Church mouse guy: "Of course, you continue to glide by the fact that the USA
has decided to allow torture in emergencies such as the case that
I cited to you before wherein Islamofascists were ready to detonate
an atomic bomb in central Oklahoma and there was only a limited number
of minutes in which to obtain information in order to stop it."

This is so asinine it hardly bears mention. It takes about 48 hours
of torture to break half the population, more for those who are
brain washed into believing that their ability to bear torture is
how much reward they get in heaven when they are martyred.
Sorry, but if there is a time limit of a couple of hours, the desired
information will NOT BE tortured out of hardly anybody who would
set such a bomb. As a general principle, the value of
any useful knowledge gained from torture is NEVER as much as contaminating
the eternal American souls for all eternity. Come on Sir, study the history
of torture.

As the holding of slaves contaminated whole generations of American
leaders in the south, so kinky sexual hijinks is contaminating a generation
of of future American leaders. We need to be careful here.
Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values.

 

Well, 51 Gitmo detainees are on a hunger strike because they want to be free. We are giving them IV fluids to keep them alive - how humiliating for them.

 

Yes, it would be much less humiliating to let them starve.

 

Yes, it would be much less humiliating to let them starve. </font>[/QUOTE]It would be for them.

PLUS

72 virgins are waiting.

 

The Gitmo hunger striker died and when to (whatever).
(whomever the greeter was) the striker stood before him.
But (to make a long story shorter), the following folk
(listed in alphabetic order) in turn
wupped the striker numb:

Pearl Bailey
Richard E. Byrd
William Clark (remember Lewis & Clark)
Ella Fitzgerald
President William Harrison
Sam Houston
President Thomas Jefferson
Patrick Henry
Sam Houston
Robert E. Lee
Meriwether Lewis
Shirley MacLaine
Presdient James Madison
John Marshall
Cyrus McCormic
President James Monroe
Walter Reed
George C. Scott
Sam Snead
President Zachary Taylor
President John Tyler
Booker T. Washington
President George Washington
President Woodrow Wilson
as well as 48 of their fellow Virginains.

Oops that was 72 Virginians NOT 72 Virgians.

 

Had me goin' there for a minute.

 

awwwwwwwwww the terrorists who are willing to whack off innocent people's heads are being humiliated by placing women's undies on their heads. Let me get out my hanky. **sniffle**

...they ought to be happy they even HAVE heads to put the underwear upon.

People have gotten so wrapped up in this liberal nonsense nowadays that they are worried about "humiliating" people who would murder 3,000 people and not even blink. It is absolutely stupid.

It's too bad that those who would defend these kind of "people" are usually the ones who havent had their family members blown up by any of them. It's just like the drunk driver. Unfortunately he ends up destroying everyone ELSE'S lives if not killing them while he himself wakes up out of his own drunken stupor to go out and do it again.

If these liberals who do things like let child molestors out of prison, etc... had THEIR children molested and/or murdered, they might be singing a different tune. Same thing with those who would allow gang members to roam the streets. If only the ones who let them out of prison were the same ones the gang members they let out SHOT AT... they might be singing a different tune.

"oh... his rights are being violated". Its just sickening how these criminals have more rights than we do.

 

While i was in the army in the 90's (clinton's army),one of our field exercizes was blocaded by greenpeace and eventually shut down by the EPA (a catcus might get hit by an abrams).i don't think that we could have won WWII with the people in the Gov't today. the point of war is to break things and kill people until you win. and if America is not willing to do what it takes (i'm not saying this is good, just that it is), whatever it takes, we will fall from power rapidly.

in order for a country to survive it's government HAS to lie to people and do things that an ordinary person would be jailed for. now please do not think i am saying these are good things, just nessesary. we needs spies, and covert ops to keep us safe, and what's the worst part for me is we need people who are willing to do these thing for a living. and believe me not many people can.

my point is we are at war, and the point is to win. Oh, and the army regularly tortures people, it's own soldiers. for certian soldiers (mainly SOF) they have to be prepared for what is going to happen to them when they are captured by the enemy.

I had the distinct privilege of speaking to a man who was shot down during the first Gulf war. while in prison he was only (for months) allowed to sit down on a up standing 16 oz coke bottle. you know the ones from the eighties, tall and skinny. what goes one in GITMO is not torture, but rather it's sounds like it is easier than my basic training was.

thankyou and God Bless