"But its just lunch?"

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Salty, Dec 4, 2003.

  1. Salty

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    A subject came up today. Is it wrong for a married women to have lunch with a married man, who is not her husband.
    What about dinner as opposed to lunch?
    What about social as opposed to business"

    What does the jury say? :confused: :rolleyes:
     
  2. Mike McK

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    I don't know that it's wrong, necessarily, but it's probably not the brightest idea.
     
  3. Daniel David

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    If it is pouring rain outside, and I drive by a woman I know (who isn't direct family), she can just get wet.

    I will not ride alone in the car with another woman or eat with another woman. I rarely even speak to another woman other than basic, courteous pleasantries. I do not wish to come across cold in that area, but if it is that or someone suspecting something, then I will just be perceived as a cold shoulder. Sorry, todays society begs for that kind of suspicion (especially since I am a preacher).

    Dinner which turns into another dinner which turns into phone calls which turns into life dreams and how bad the spouse is which turns into emotional bonding which turns physical.
     
  4. Major B

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    My wife and I operate a Biblical Counseling ministry, and our number one rule is that I will not counsel a woman without a chaperone (usually my wife).

    One of the things I stress to married couples and in premarital counseling is this: you cannot have a close personal relationship with a person of the opposite gender who is unrelated to you.
     
  5. Ransom

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    SALTCITYBAPTIST asked:

    A subject came up today. Is it wrong for a married women to have lunch with a married man, who is not her husband.

    Yes, as long as it is Tuesday, but not on the second Tuesday of the month, unless it is a leap year, but not if they go to a restaurant that serves Lebanese food, but it's alright if they order falafel, but not tabbouleh.

    (The moral of the story being: If you're going to make up rules arbitrarily to forbid what might be a perfectly innocent lunch, with no Biblical support whatsoever, then you might as well have fun doing it.)
     
  6. Major B

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    1 Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    Most of the adulterous relationships that have led to people seeking our counsel started with perfectly innocent relationships.
     
  7. Ransom

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    Jesus ate with hookers; was he disobeying 1 Thess. 5:22?
     
  8. Major B

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    I don't recall that he had a private lunch alone with one...
     
  9. Ransom

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    So it's only the "appearance of evil" if it's a private meal alone, and there's no problem with lunch in a public restaurant?
     
  10. Major B

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    A private lunch is seated with another person at a table with no one else in the group.

    Look, there is no commandment here; this just makes good sense. If someone wants to play with fire, I guess that's up to them.

    By the way, I don't personally know any pastors, church staff members, or deacons in this area who would think of violating this wise rule.
     
  11. dianetavegia

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    I agree with Major B. Don't go looking for trouble or the appearance of trouble!

    Diane
     
  12. Ransom

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    Major B said:

    Look, there is no commandment here; this just makes good sense.

    Then why did you try and pretend there was, by citing 1 Thess 5:22? (Which, incidentally, has nothing to do with keeping away from what merely looks evil, otherwise Jesus sinned repeatedly.)
     
  13. Major B

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    So said the Pharisees in accusing Him, but I don't know of any incidents where Jesus actually DID anything that appeared evil.

    By the way, I am not pretending anything. I don't think this is a commandment (as in the 10), but a word of wise counsel from Paul, as in:

    1 Tim 4:12 '... be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity..."


    Look, if you think someone should risk it, think that.
     
  14. Sularis

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    Ohmigosh!

    the greatest centre of immorality has just been revealed unto me!

    Church!

    Men and women - sitting NEAR each other! That could lead to friendships! or WORSE Marriage!

    On a more serious note - you are obviously extremely IGNORANT of the Bible if you state Jesus was never alone with a woman - thus allowing for the appearance of evil

    1)John 4
    2)Mary and Martha - who said Lazarus was there? lil ol Mary in a crowd of male disciples listening to Jesus while Martha served - after all Martha not Lazarus invited Jesus
    3)the woman anointing Jesus - come on even the disciples thought it in poor taste
    4) John 20:17 - Jesus after ressurection alone in the Garden with a woman

    1Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    I do not see how being a friend is evil

    I say that men and women can be friends without any sexual/sinful thought or action even coming into play. It is the nitpickers, Judaizers(sp), those who insist on the law over grace - that cause the harm.
     
  15. Major B

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    This time read carefully. It is dangerous to have a CLOSE PERSONAL FRIEND of the opposite gender unless that person is related or unless you and the person of the opposite gender are moving in the direction of being related (i.e., you are both eligible and you are courting). I am not talking about acquaintances, I am not talking about sitting in church along with a crowd of folks. Laugh all you want, you have obviously not sat as I have and counselled people whose lives have been shattered by "harmless" "innocent" friendships.

    It is a subtle thing. Here is a typical scenario:

    John and Sue are both married to other people, but they work together in an office. They become good friends, then close friends. They eat lunch as a couple from time to time, then perhaps regularly. Because of work, they see each other more than they do their spouses; they begin to have many commonalities. They confide in one another about personal things. This doesn't cause a problem until one or both of them begin to have some marital difficulty. They begin to have confusing feelings and thoughts, they begin to grow closer. Somewhere along the line, a line is crossed, and they wind up at Motel 6.

    Are there people who have friendships like this that never lead to this sin? Yes. There are also people who never wear a seatbelt and get away with that.

    In nearly all of the cases I've seen over the years, actual physical adultery was preceded by mental and emotional adultery, that is, becoming "one" mentally and emotionally with a person of the opposite gender other than your spouse.

    Laugh away--I hope you never have the occasion to cry instead.
     
  16. Major B

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    JOhn 4--at the village well, in full public view.

    Mary AND Martha--duh, that isn't alone

    The woman anointing His feet--during a crowded dinner with many right there.

    In the Garden, after the resurrection, with a resurrection body, that is incapable of marrying or giving in marriage (according to Jesus and Paul, anyway)

    Mat 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

    Mark 12:25 "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."

    1 Cor 15:35-50 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
     
  17. blackbird

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    Now----this is a no--brainer! Those who indulge in those friendly suppers and lunches and stuff like that are "No brainer's!!"

    Of course, over the period of someone's life---there will be opportunities to do just what the subject is talking about----to have that lunch, supper---whatever!

    But as Dirty Harry would say, "Boys! Is it worth it??"

    Here's one thing we need to do---rehearse the consequences---my wife knows were my pistol is! She can "cock and lock" my 8mm Mauser! She can push the lever of my .30-30 forward---then back and can fire it from her hip! She knows whether my pump shotgun is on safety or not and how to inject a shell! And that's just if she wants to go Deer huntin'!! No tellin' her reaction if she's out "Dear!" huntin'!!!

    IOW----BOYS!!!! IT AIN'T WORTH IT!!! IT AIN'T WORTH IT!!! TOO MUCH TO LIVE FOR IN THE FUTURE TO BLOW IT FOR THE NOW!!! YOUR WIFE! YOUR CHILDREN! YOUR FRIENDS! YOUR PREACHER! YOUR CHURCH! YOUR MOM AND DAD!

    IT AIN'T WORTH IT---EVEN IF IT APPEARS INNOCENT!!!

    BROTHER DAVID
     
  18. computerjunkie

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    I work for my pastor. I have seen him counsel many, many people (together as a couple, or separately) whose marriages are in trouble (or over) because of this very thing. It starts out so innocently...

    (And any counseling I schedule for him with a woman by herself, I must schedule when I am there. He will not counsel a woman in his office when no one else is there.)

    Our staff has a rule that we NOT go to lunch, run an errand, make hospital visits, or anything else with just two people of the opposite sex. If my pastor wants to take me to lunch for my birthday (or just because I've been an exceptional employee [​IMG] ), he invites one of the other pastors to go with us, or we go as a group.

    The staff rule is two-fold: 1) to avoid ANY appearance of any impropriety (how would it look if my pastor and I went to Lifeway to pick up a book and a church member saw us in the car together?); and 2) to keep us from being put in any situation that might lead to harm (pastors and staff are human, just like anybody else).

    If a church thinks it's important enough to establish it as "policy" for their staff, it's probably a good policy for ANYBODY.

    CJ
     
  19. Ransom

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    Major B said:

    JOhn 4--at the village well, in full public view.

    In full public view? You mean like at a restaurant? (thinking back to something completely contradictory you said earlier)
     
  20. USN2Pulpit

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    Major B, I'm sure people are just having a fun time with this debate, because I can't imagine anyone not seeing plainly what you are trying to say.
     

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