But Judas drank the cup!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    A common objection to definite atonement is that Judas broke bread and drank the cup with Jesus at the last supper. 'Surely,' one reasons, 'this is evidence that Christ died for all men. He even said, 'This is my body broken for you,' and so on. Let's look at the verses closely and consider the wording.

    Luk 22:19-22 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me [is] with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

    In this luke passage, Christ speaks TO the disciples and OF Judas. Listen closely to how he speaks: "This is my body broken for YOU. This is my blood shed for YOU." Then he shifts gears and says, "The hand of HIM that betrayeth me..." Though Judas was in the room, Christ wasn't speaking to him as evidenced by the way he speaks of Judas in the third person.

    Jesus does the same thing in Matthew:

    Mat 26:23-28 And he answered and said, He that dippeth [his] hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Judas is HE, and the disciples are YOU. Big difference in wording. Notice also that Christ's blood is shed for MANY for the remission of sins- not all.

    Again in Mark!

    Mar 14:21-24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake [it], and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave [it] to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

    Judas is 'that man.' And the blood is shed for 'many' not 'all.'

    But he drank the cup!

    Of course he did. But it was only a cup. It was only the fruit of the vine and not actual salvation. Christ made no reference to the blood being shed for Judas- which means the picture of the atonement was not used on Judas. Judas drank his own cup and paid for his own sins. In fact, 1 Cor. 11:27 speaks of drinking it 'unworthily' and I believe Judas did this very thing.

    These passages cannot be used to prove universal atonement. A simple examination of the words show the true intent of Christ's atonement.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Calvinism survives by redefining terms, and misapplying them.

    In 1John 2:2 Christ is said to be "The Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" and to emphasize the point "The SAVIOR of the WORLD" 1John 4:14.

    But in no case is this an argument for "Atonement complete for the WHOLE WORLD".

    So Calivnism seeks to bend one truth - and turn it back on "other truths".

    So They are correct when they confirm that THERE ARE LOST people - and yes even JUDAS is among them (John 17:12) the "son of perdition".

    They are also correct when they argue that there is no "universal atonement".

    They are WRONG when they claim that INSTEAD of the 1John 2:2 "Atoning SACRIFICE" being COMPLETED at the Cross - it is "ALL of Atonement" that is completed there.

    So with that twist/ploy they have the minefield established and just waiting for an Arminian to step into an environment where truth has been bent back on itself to form a weapon AGAINST truth!

    Arminians should be warned and should not step into the trap of denying the 1John 2:2 fact of the "Atoning Sacrifice completed" and swallowing the Calvinist myth that INSTEAD of that - the "Completed atonement was accomplished prior to the Heb 8-10 High Priestly Work of Christ that is NEEDED in God's Lev 16 model of Atonement"!

    By agreeing to the foundation errors of Calvinism that forms the premise for their arguments - Arminians sometimes find themselves tricked into stepping into another error - while debating error.

    It can be frustrating to watch.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    So what if Judas drank from the cup, many pastors today drink falsely and unworthily from it too! Besides, Judas was an Elect of God! Elected to his role as the betrayer of God the Son. It had to happen, so God elected one for that purpose.
     
  4. rc

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    But Judas had FREE WILL Wes!! Are you telling me God FORCED Judas to do that? Judas could have stayed true to Jesus couldn't he? You are making God to be unjust if you said He ELECTED Judas to betray Christ.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    My gracious then God must be unjust in order to satisfy rc, because elect judas to the role of betrayer He did. Can you provide me a scripture where Judas declared Jesus to be the Lord and Master of his life? Jesus Confirms that Judas was "destined to be lost to fulfill the scriptures" in John 17:12. Yes God the son tells us that Judas was destined to be lost! Believe it or not, it is bible!
     
  6. whetstone

    whetstone
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    RC decided to poke fun a bit wes, but I'll commend you and agree with you...this once ;)

    So I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Christ said 'it is finished' but it really isn't?
     
  7. BobRyan

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    "It" is the "Atoning Sacrifice" that 1John 2:2 says "IT" is. And so "IT" is finished at the cross.

    I think Calvinism had hoped to stick something else in there - but it is too late - 1John 2:2 has already been written.
     
  8. whetstone

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    Please give me your definition of the word 'propitiation.'
     
  9. philg

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    Please give me your definition of the word 'propitiation.' </font>[/QUOTE]Whetstone, Do you think that when Jesus died on the cross that salvation took place at that point or does a person first have to beleive?

    25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God Romans 3:25

    He is a propitiation through FAITH in his blood.

    The passover in the old testement is a foreshadow of Christ work on the cross. The blood of the passover lamb only became effective after it was applied to the doorpost. exodus 12:6-22. The death of the lamb did not save anyone unless the blood was applied.
    The attonment of Jesus is sufficent for all men but effective only for those who believe.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    SPOT ON, PhilG, SPOT ON!

    Whetstone, You agreed with me on one thing, you really should agree with Scripture on this one! And thank PhilG for bringing it to light!
     
  11. whetstone

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    Salvation actually occurs 4 different times:

    -before the foundation of the world when Christ was slain
    -on the cross when Christ died
    -when a person accepts Christ
    -when a believer is perfected and saved ultimately from sin.

    I agree. Therefore every person in the world has not experience this propitiation.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    The pagan greeks invented this idea regarding the act of sacrifice to appease a pagan angry diety.

    By CONTRAST the Bible teaches that "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" and it teaches us about the ATONING SACRIFICE of atonement 1John 2:2 not the "appeasement of an angry deity".

    So by rejecting paganism and accepting God's own view of Atonment "instead" we have the "Atoning Sacrifice" Completed at the cross 1John 2:2 NIV.

    But in Calvinism - the pagan greek definition in 1John 2:2 is the "preferred one".

    Hence the convoluted and contradictory view of Calvinists that the Atonement teaching of God in Lev 16 (The Day of Atonement) is wrong - and the High Priestly work of Christ (Heb 8-10) started after the cross and described in Lev 16 is "not needed for Atonement".

    The Arminian solution is to simply reject paganism and accept scripture instead.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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  14. BobRyan

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    The word – “Propitiation”.

    Notice the first and primary definition given --

     
  15. BobRyan

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    Paganism anyone?
     
  16. whetstone

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    I asked, 'what does propitiation mean to you?' and you answered with 'Calvinism is Paganism!' (essentially) Why don't we just stick to simple New Testament Greek to get our answer? Sheesh.

    Appeasement. That is the proper word to describe propitiation from the Greek word Hilasmos. Agree? You've attempted to make it a lot more complex than it is by allowing pagan period history to influence the meaning of simple words.

    So let's look up 'appease' in english to get an idear of what propitiation means.

    So let's see if we understand 1 John 2:2.

    God is at peace, quiet, calm, soothed, satisfied, relieved, pacified, content with our sins, and not only with ours but also the worlds.

    That is what the verse LITERALLY means.

    How does God punish people He is on such good terms with? (Unless He's not referring to EVERY PERSON, but those believers not at the church Paul is writing too? NAHH!!)

    [​IMG]
     
  17. johnp.

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    He cannot help Himself but He seems to show remorse for sending His loved ones to Hell-He cries His eyes out! :cool: Forever.

    john.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Did I forget to show the Greek pagan meaning of the idea of "proptitiation"???

    I could have sworn I SHOWED that.

    Did I forget to CONTRAST that with the Bible view of Hilasmos USED IN LEV 16's Day of ATONEMENT???


    Did I forget to include the first foremost and primary defintion for the greek concept of Propitiating deities??

    Certainly it is very directed at quieting, calming soothing, pacifying those angry deities by sacrifice. Did I fail to point that out?

    BY CONTRAST the Bible says "GOD SO LOVED the WORLD that HE gave"

    So then - are you still going to go with the pagan idea of appeasement instead??


    You said

    Well that is one way to louse up the text. Claim that it is God is "satisified with our SINS" AND "Satisified with the sins of the whole world" instead of showing that Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice FOR our sins.!

    It is one thing to have payment/sacrifice FOR our sins and it another to be "Satisified WITH our sins"

    You have gone far beyond the pagan notion of "appeasement" in this "Satisfied WITH our sins" idea!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    The word – “Propitiation”.

    Notice the first and primary definition given --

    And then notice how the greek pagan idea of appeasement of an angry deity is contrasted with the Bible concept of atonement - "Atoning Sacrifice"!

     
  20. whetstone

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    [​IMG] i could have worded 'satisfied with our sins' better. I was trying to paraphrase the verse which actually says, 'he (Christ) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the world.' So God is at peace, quiet, calm, soothed, satisfied, relieved, pacified, contented with Christ's sacrifice for us, and not only us, but for the whole world.

    Stop jumping on my back for just a second to see what I'm trying to say here. God is SATISFIED with the people Christ has propitiated for. He's not happy they were sinners, but they are reconciled now through the propitiation of Christ.

    By saying all people of all time have this propitiation is to say God is satisfied with saved and lost.

    FORGET YOUR PAGANISM NONSENSE FOR 5 SECONDS AND READ WHAT I'M SAYING!

    God is not satisfied with the lost! Otherwise He wouldn't be punishing them! Something is wrong here! Either God is sadistic enought to punish those He is satisfied with, or 1 John 2:2 doesn't mean 'all people of all time!' Take your pick!
     

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