By faith or by choice

You have any idea where the term 'lost' is derived?

It comes from 'lost sheep'.

Whenever lost sheep are brought home to the church (read kingdom), they become 'saved' sheep.

 

I don't have to do anything, I was just pointing out to Amy the PB doctrine of eternal salvation for the sheep you keep talking about. Gifts have to be received, they are not placed into your dna.

 

You can take your accusation to your own heart as it describes you, not me.

[Snip - Inflammatory] Your very first response to me on BB was God will save however He wants to, (by your implication) though I cannot search back that far, to which I replied "caustic much?"

So, you can take your outright lie accusation and plant it some where on you. [Snip - Inflammatory]

[Snip - Inflammatory], and when I asked you about preaching the Gospel and evangelistic effort on the part of your church, you simply provided a link that expressed your beliefs, which are in fact against this effort. That is, that you are not evangelistic, nor mission minded. This instead of being upfront, you hide behind a link in darkness, and won't come out and state your beliefs, and hide under cover, waiting to [Snip - Inflammatory]

So, the[Snip - Inflammatory] is upon you and your beliefs, not upon me.

Oh, here's the link:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1611446#post1611446

Don't ever accuse me of lying, it's something I don't do, and my memory is spot on.

 

Believeing is a choice and is demonstrated here at BB all the time. A great example is the creation account. Many (like myself) believe in a literal six day, normal 24 hours per day creation. Others do not believe this and hold that the six days in Genesis 1 were long periods of time. Now, both sides know the other side's view, so obviously a person makes a choice which theory to believe.

Now, I believe that God is straightforward and honest in the scriptures. I believe if God took thousands, or millions, or billions of years to create the heaven and the earth, he could have simply said so. And if God said that I would believe it.

Others take modern "science" into view, and this is why they choose to believe the Genesis account is not literal, but each day represents a long period of time.

I could choose to believe the "scientific view", but I reject it upon the reason I stated before. I very simply believe God does not tell us misleading information, and that if he had taken long ages to create the universe, he would simply have said that.

 

I believe that "12 Angry Men" supports to some extent the view presented in the OP. Most of the Jury believed the defendant guilty for various and sundry reasons. They were persuaded to believe him innocent by outside forces!

 

As an addendum to the above post [#65] I would also say that no one is saved unless they are acted on by an external force!

 

Persuasion implies the force of an argument, but it does not mean irresistibly compelled.

It is not possible that God wants Christians to believe that the creation was a literal six 24 hour days, and that it was also billions of years. Yet, good Christians believe both theories. Therefore, it cannot be that God has irresistibly caused them to believe, or at the least, he has not irresistibly caused Christians to believe a contradiction.

As I explained, my personal belief on this subject is founded upon the belief that God is perfectly honest and does not make misleading statements. I have no problem with creation being billions of years if that is what God would have said, but God did not say that, he said it was six days. That is what I believe.

Others are persuaded by modern science, and science can make very convincing arguments, although I believe them in error. But folks generally trust science, and this is why many believe creation took place over billions of years.

But again, I cannot believe God irresistibly compels men to believe two contradictory stories. Is that what you believe?

 

Perhaps these people are like the Jews to whom Stephen preached before they stoned him!

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

Exactly. Then it is not irresistible is it?

 

Your understanding is incomplete. The person acts on their faith through their free will. It is not an either or situation.

Just because a person has faith it does not mean they will act on that faith. For instance, I have faith that a parachute will open if I jump out of an airplane and pull the ripcord. But I am not going to act on that faith and jump out of an airplane.

 

Oh yeah? I bet you'll act on that faith if you're pushed out of that plane! :laugh:

 

But the Lord doesn't push or force one to be saved.
He allows us to "pull the rip cord" on our own accord, that is we exercise OUR faith.

 

Did Jonah ...pull the ripcord to get out of the fish???

 

Well, in a way he did because the prayer he prayed with seaweed wrapped around his head is what triggered God's action there. And it sort of brings up this passage that came to mind with all the talk about faith:

"For without faith it is impossible to please Him. For he that comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him"

But I didn't mention it previously as it kind of contradicts my theme about the sovereignty of God.

Otoh, it was actually the fish swallowing Jonah that triggered his repentance and of course that was orchestrated directly by God. In the predicament he was in Jonah had no recourse but to repent and seek God. So Jonah praising God from inside the fish is like the prodigal son returning to his father, and God commanding the fish to vomit Jonah on dry land is like The father seeing the son from a long way off and going out to meet him.

 

OUR faith says DHK? Um, no.

 

It is not good to compare a prophet of God with the average person. God doesn't appear to all of us as he did to Paul on the road to Damascus, and God doesn't cause a whale to swallow every believer who disobeys God.

If God can simply irresistibly cause men to repent and believe, why did he need Jonah at all? Why didn't he simply irresistibly cause all the people of Ninevah to repent?

And God doesn't have to cause hardship for a person who steps out in sin. If you start drinking, you might become addicted, lose your wife and job, wreck your car and get thrown in jail. God doesn't have to cause this, these are the natural consequences that happen with drinking. Or, you start taking drugs and become addicted, you start breaking into houses to support your habit and get thrown in prison. Again, God doesn't have to cause this, these are the natural consequences of sin.

The prodigal son wasted his money away in riotous living. I just read a story of a former NFL star who made over 80 million dollars in his career, and today he is broke. He got four women pregnant and pays over 40 thousand dollars a month (yes, forty thousand dollars per month) in child support. God didn't have to cause that, that is the natural consequences of fooling around with many women.

The prodigal son's own sins brought him down and brought him to his senses, just as many men have hit rock bottom by drinking, drugs, gambling, fooling around, etc... The prodigal son realized he was actually much happier living in order in his father's house. All the things he thought he was missing and that would make him happy, he discovered brought only misery. This is what sin does, it destroys. He didn't have to be supernaturally zapped to realize this.

Now, I'm not saying God doesn't intervene, we have the stories of Paul and Jonah that proves he does at times. But that doesn't mean it is like that for every person.

 

Winman

You rightly say that evidence does not necessarily convince anyone. The denial by Thomas demonstrates this. So if evidence does not produce faith what does? It is the work of the Gd the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the gift of faith.

Salvation is a supernatural act of God, by the Grace of God.

 

God intervenes in every christians life.

God had ordained "the action"....God had already prepared the fish...

Jonah learned in God's school...that salvation is of the Lord.:thumbs:

 

The law is written upon the heart, and that without hearing it. Those born from above do by nature the things of the law. Justification is by grace alone.

 

Bit of a mixed metaphor isn't it?

Jonah would have had to have great faith indeed to have a ripcord to pull in the first place!