By God’s law it’s impossible … it’s only possible by God’s grace!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    God’s grace is His unmerited favor towards man … and without it man cannot please God!

    God’s grace includes all of the following
    (1) the possibility that even some people can be saved, (2) His ingenious plan of salvation,
    (3) His sending God the Son to earth, (4) His giving the free gift of grace-faith to some people,
    (5) His giving God the Holy Spirit to these people, and (6) the sanctifying work of His Spirit.

    However, God’s gift of grace was NOT given to man just for him to say, “Gee thanks, Lord.”
    Details to follow …

    The entire Bible is all about man’s free will.
    How willing is man to obey God’s will and God’s commands?
    And how willing is he to co-operate with God in fulfilling His objectives on earth?

    God created all of His angels and humans with free will.
    We know how His #1 arch-angel and 1/3 of His angels handled their free will, don’t we!
    God didn’t want to be worshipped by robots in heaven, or by robots on earth.
    And He didn’t want to live with robots in heaven!

    In the old covenant, God proved that man was totally incapable of satisfying Him …
    because almost every last one of His “chosen people” were hopelessly sinful and rebellious!
    God was always having a fit about all of the sinning and disobedience of His people.

    The Holy God certainly did NOT wish to share heaven with sinful man for all of eternity,
    so He decided to devise a plan to clean man up so he could actually be acceptable to Him.

    God dispersed His original chosen people throughout the world (Deut 28:64, Ezek 12:15),
    and promised to institute a new and better covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:24-28).

    1 … God created His “God-man” Jesus Christ, His special Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
    This anointed One personally delivered the necessary spiritual truths to the world,
    and also accomplished many other critically important things.

    2 … God gave His free gift of grace-faith to some people.
    Certain people were chosen (for whatever reason) to be given saving faith,
    which enabled them to believe in Jesus and His “foolish” gospel.
    However, God’s grace is only an opportunity to gain heaven … it is not a free ride!

    3 … God sent His Holy Spirit (the Comforter-Helper) to be placed inside of these people.
    This “Spirit of grace” would provide invaluable help to them in a multitude of ways.
    They could choose to co-operate with God in being cleaned up and made acceptable to Him!
    If we co-operate with Him, the precious Holy Spirit is God’s sin eradication specialist.

    This trinity of good stuff above is mixed in with some incredibly bad stuff,
    which really gets in the way: man’s sin nature, and man’s mortal enemy Satan.
    These are 2 major obstacles, which need to be overcome for man to be spiritually successful.

    It is all about sin and getting rid of it
    God’s church must be made holy and spotless. Will you end up being part of it?

    This is the major reason for all of the warnings and threats in Scripture!
    NOT all Christians will be willing to co-operate with God to get rid of their sins.

    The Bible describes Satan as the god and ruler of this world,
    who is a total and complete liar and the one who deceives the whole world.
    Yes, we’re dealing with the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
    And he has been successful in deceiving the churches in some areas.

    So, let’s not be too sure that all of our pet doctrines are iron-clad truth.
    The best source of spiritual truth is when the Holy Spirit confirms Scripture.

    .
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    No, that is not God's redeeming grace at all. You are merely making grace the divine ENABLEMENT by man to potentially satisfy God's demands and thus "please God." God's redemptive grace is God's provision in the Person and work of Jesus Christ that completely satisfies all of God's demands IN THE PLACE OF all those given to the Son by the Father - Rom. 3:24-26; Jn.17:2; Rom. 8:28-39.

    We are saved by grace, not potentially saved by grace - Eph. 2:8 (note the perfect tense verb as a completed action).



    Absolutely false! The entire Bible is all about God's will and man's rebellion against his will, condemnation and God's provision to redeem fallen rebellious humanity.


    There is no such man born among women willing to obey God's will (Rom. 3:9-11; 3:23; 8:7).




    What is true of Israsel is true of all humanity - fallen rebellious human nature that cannot be reformed but must be transformed by new birth even before the cross (Jn. 3:3-8).

    No such plan, no such gospel! Christ satisfied all the demands of God against those given to him by the Father (Rom. 3:24-25). The fallen nature cannot be cleaned up, it cannot be saved (Rom. 7:18,24,25) it must be destroyed by death. Only a NEW CREATION can please God and only when empowered by the Spirit of God. None of this is man's doing but is a creative act of God (Eph. 2:10) wherein God works in that renewed nature both "to will" and "to do" of His good pleasure - none of this can be credited to the reborn child of God.



    Your confusing the Jewish elect from the physical loins of Abraham with the gentile elect through faith.

    So far so good


    It is a FREE ride but a ROUGH one. Grace obtains heaven FREELY (Rom. 3:24 "freely by grace") but grace does not stop with mere obtaining entrance itno heaven but is the work of God in and through the elect to progressively conform that person to the image of Christ which only finalizes in glorification in the resurrection.



    You are confusing the cleansing of new birth with the progressive cleansing of sanctification. The cleansing of new birth obtains heaven. The progressive cleansing has to do with TEMPORAL growth and experiential salvation and future rewards. It is impossible for progressive cleansing to obtain heaven because it is NEVER FINISHED in this life and God's standard for entrance into heaven is SINLESSNESS as God is sinless (Mt. 5:20,46).

    Sin is NEVER eradicated by the Spirit IN THIS LIFE (Rom. 7:18-25). It can be mortified or put to death only when we are walking in the Spirit but no human being walks in the Spirit continually (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Your "walk" has nothing to do with gaining entrance into heaven.

    You will NEVER completely overcome either in this life - impossible. This is not a battle to win heaven but a battle only for those who have obtained entrance into heaven. Satan knows he cannot rob you of heaven because it is based upon Christ's obedience not yours, but he can destroy your testimony and influence here and now for the glory of God.


    You are confusing ultimate glorification with progressive sanctification. the very fact it is PROGRESSIVE destroys your whole contention of complete eradication of sin.

    Christ paid for my sins 2000 years ago and if he paid for ANY he paid for ALL as they were ALL future from the cross (Rom. 4:6-8). Cooperation with God by his children determines blessings or chastening (heb. 12:5-10) but not entrance into heaven as that is secured by Christ's obedience not yours!

    You are simply teaching another version of a gospel of works - your idea of grace is nothing more than the offer of divine enablement for man to satisfy God's demands. In other words you reject Christ and his finished work.
     
  3. evangelist-7

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    Christ finished His work, that is for sure! ... And I certainly do not reject it.

    However, we have not finished ours ...
    until we continue in the faith, and are overcomers, all the way to our deaths.

    Without holiness no one will see the Lord ... Are you ready?

    I have a difficult time accepting that those who believe in OSAS
    are living victorious lives, i.e. free from sin and walking in holiness!

    Without this, I absolutely guarantee you that no one will see heaven.

    The time is getting shorter than you think ... and the revelation is getting stronger!

    .
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    You have declared in these parallel statements your rejection of the gospel of Jesus Christ but rather adopted a C0-Partnership Gospel which is no gospel at all.

    The same Greek root is translated "holy" "saint" "sanctify" "holiness" and it means "set apart." Your problem is that not all Christians are EQUALLY "set apart" in their developmental growth in Christ. Every child of God is set apart equally by new birth, by the indwelling Spirit of God, and by some degree of progressive sanctification or they are not born again, Spirit indwelt children of God at all.

    So where do you draw the line? How much sanctification is necessary? How much "holiness" is required?

    Any person who claims to be "free from sin" has redefined "sin" or redefined the Law of God. No such person exists (1 Jn. 1:8-10; Philip. 3:10-12).

    The term "perfect" when use of God means sinlessness but when used of men refers to "relative" degree of maturity (Philip. 2:12-15; Heb. 5:13-6:2).
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    The simple gospel is just a simple hook that catches the fishes.
    Further details about everything come later.

    Everyone now should understand the 2 stages of sanctification: positional and progressive.

    The "sinlessness and holiness" line is drawn by the Lord, not by me.

    .
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    The Bible describes the gospel as a "net" but not as a hook. Where it describes it as a "net" there are only two kinds of fish the net draws in - the good and the bad. In that context, the bad are false professors never true believers that turned against Christ. It concludes the primary parable of the "true" seed and "tares." Their is no indication that the "true" seed turn into "tares."

    The "positional" is EQUAL between all born again believers. However, "progressive" by its very nature differs from person to person. The theif on the cross had very little progressive sanctification but yet sufficient to see the Lord. In contrast, the false professor has neither at all.

    However, the nature of your doctrine and the conclusion you draw from that doctrine demand you must draw a line somewhere or else your doctrine ceases to have any practical significance. For example, if the available evidence of the life of the Old Testament person of "Lot" is examined under the microscope of your understanding of "without holiness no man" will see the Lord, then Lot should not have seen the Lord. However, Peter with the same Biblical evidence PLUS writing by inspiration places him in the class of those now in heaven. Can you find much of anything commendable in the recorded life of Lot in the Old Testament? Particular the last words about him in scripture?
     
  7. evangelist-7

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    I truly have lost track of the number of times I have explained here ...

    HOW THE CHRISTIAN KEEPS FREE FROM SIN, WITHOUT SIN, HOLY, etc.

    1 John 1:
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just
    to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


    This confessing of our sins and repenting (forsaking) of them is all part of the tremendous grace of God.
    Truly, this is all that is necessary!
    And the precious Holy Spirit will let the true BAC know what needs to be taken care of.
    Actually, the Holy Spirit came to convict everyone of their sins (John 16:8).

    .
     
    #7 evangelist-7, Jul 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2013
  8. The Biblicist

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    [/QUOTE]

    You are failing to understand the scripture you are quoting. The present tense "we have no sin" demands the continuing presence of sin. The pronoun "we" is inclusive of John while he is writing under the most controlling power of the Spirit of God - writing by inspiration so that every word is as though it flows from God's own vocal chords. Can't get much more under the control of the Holy Spirit than that. Yet in that condition he is not without sin.

    Do you understand that sin is Biblically divided into two primary classifications (1) coming short - Rom. 3:23 or sins of ommission - failure to measure up to every point in God's Law - James 2:10

    (2) transgression - 1 Jn. 4:6 or willful and specific acts of violation of God's law.

    You at no time in your unglorified existence ever measure up to every point of God's Law - you always come short - you never arrive at the point in this life where you are "perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven IS PERFECT".

    The whole point of this verse is to identify those who deny this fact of OMISSION as DECEIVED. Thus the verse is teaching the very oppositie of your interpretation and application of it.

    Furthermore, the fact that you need repeated cleansing declares you have not yet reached sinless perfection.
     
  9. evangelist-7

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    To your way of thinking, I misinterpret almost every verse of Scripture.

    Everyone knows that man is intelligent enough to rationalize everything to fit his preferences.
    But, this rationalizing that man does has nothing to do with the truth.
    In fact, it is simply an excuse for not accepting or admitting the truth.

    And beyond that, there usually are two sides to an argument.
    Intellectual Germans argue for an hour, then switch positions and argue for another hour!
    This solves nothing.

    .
     
  10. Gup20

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    With the exception of where Biblicist questions evangelist-7's salvation, I agree with his exposition of what you have written, evangelist. However, I do agree with you that God has given man (and other spiritual beings) a free will. We can choose to follow Him or not. We can choose to believe or not.

    However, I don't think we have complete free will.

    Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

    We can't choose to reject God and live, for example. If you do a Biblical search of the word "choose" you will find that God rarely gives man a choice of anything. However, twice in Deuteronomy 30 he gives man this choice: life or death, blessing or cursing.

    I liken it to giving a child a choice between pancakes for breakfast or cereal. The child has "free will" to choose between the selected choices and what I define those choices to be, but beyond that the child can't choose steak and eggs, for example. Salvation (the life and death portion) is the one choice He allows us to make in that we can choose to believe and have life or we can choose not to believe and die in our sins.

    Calvinists will say that man can't make that choice... but I disagree. God commanded us to make that choice, so He has given us the ability to make that choice.

    The other choice (the blessing or cursing portion) is our sin. If this was not our choice to make, then we could not be held responsible for our own sin and God would be responsible for evil and death, rather than man. But to be sure, man is responsible for death and sin, not God.

    1Cr 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

    Jam 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
    14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
    15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.​
     
  11. evangelist-7

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    Since he questions my salvation, you should seriously question everything he writes.

    We all know that on the surface, in our English, etc. v.22 is perposterous!
    ... 22a is true, but 22b is insane
    ... 22b must be talking only about all BACs (not all saved, but all spiritually alive ... for awhile anyway).

    .
     
    #11 evangelist-7, Jul 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2013
  12. BobRyan

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    I agree with a lot of what is said - but on some points I would differ.

    Romans 2:11 "God is not partial" is key - there is no such thing as giving saving grace or saving faith to a few and ignoring the rest.

    John 3:16 "God so loved the World".

    2Peter 3 "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance".

    1John 2:2 God sent Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole world"

    John 16 the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

    John 1 Jesus is the light of the WORLD.

    John 12:32 Christ said "I will draw ALL unto ME" and even by Calvinist standards that drawing of God enables all the choice for choosing salvation that depravity disables.

    But given that choice many still "loved darkness rather than light" John 1.

    In any case it is true for any and every human that "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    What? By asserting that you reject the gospel of grace is a theological assertion not a personal application. The Galatians had fallen from grace theologically but they were not lost. Don't accuse me of something I never said. I never said you were a lost man. I said you rejected the gospel of grace in regard to your theological interpetation and I STILL STAND BY THAT ACCUSATION.
     
  14. Gup20

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    I take each argument on it's face. No one has 100% of the truth.

    1Cr 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

    I disagree. We are all "in Adam" as we are all descendants of Adam. Those who have faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are the spiritual descendants of Abraham and therefore sons of God. Therefore those who are "in Christ" are descendants of Abraham and inherit the promise of life God made to Abraham and his spiritual descendants (those with the same faith as Abraham) for an everlasting covenant. All "in Adam" inherit death. All "in Christ" inherit life.

    Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
    Gal 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
    Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
    Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    The ONLY thing that will aloow God to look at sinner such as me is the precious blood/death of Jesus in my stead, ALL my good works/deeds compared to that are but filty rags, really Dung!

    How can God ever disown me , as the Son paid IN FULL ALL of my sins debt, past/presemt/future?

    IF I fail to repent, will affect my fellowship, NOT my eternal relationship!
     

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