Cain and God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Feb 16, 2016.

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  1. SovereignGrace

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    mwc is wanting to talk about Cain and God, so I started a thread here...

    It's not just because they rejected Christ, but died as unrepentant sinners. Many died never knowing Christ existed. Many died never hearing the gospel. ***NEXT***

    This sentence is too choppy. Please clarify.

    Not all faiths are the same. Dead in 'transgressions and sins' sinners have zero saving faith, no divine, God-given faith. Unless God divine bestows saving faith to the sinner, they justly die in their sins.

    He came to SAVE not try to save. If He came to SAVE the world, then the world will be saved. World doesn't mean all of its inhabitants. I can say americans are all over the world, but the world isn't solely made up of americans. Also, I can say the gospel is going all throughout the world, but not everyone in the world will hear it.

    Wrong. They are condemned because they are sinners. Many died not knowing Jesus existed. Do they get a pass? Do they receive less heat in hell than those who spurned the gospel message?

    He came to seek and save...not try to seek and attempt to save...them that are lost. He said all the Father gave Him COME to Him, and He will not lose one of them.

    Oui.

    It's not what I think or say that matters, but what the bible says. He told the Pharisees in John 8 His word had no place in them. Why? They were not of His sheep. He even told them the devil was their father. Not by birth, mind you, but by relationship.

    Another verse that gets torn to doll rags. Who was propitiated? Man or God? God. Now that His wrath has been appeased, if Christ propitiated for God on behalf of everyone who ever lived, then what about those who died in their sins pre-cross? What wrath is there for God to mete out on the day of judgment? Zilch, zip, nil, nadda, none, nothing, &c.


    Already addressed this.

    Yes it should. But sadly, for many it is not. :(

    Never stated anything to the contrary.

    Huh? We get a pass? Not saying infants go to hell, but this is something I think people have to streeeetch to come to this conclusion.


    How did we come to believe? John 6:29 answers that.

    Innate faith will save nary a soul, Monsieur. Nary. A. Soul.

    Man was created upright. Yet, when he fell, he marred that image in the fall. We are made in the image of Adam(see Genesis 5:3), the marred image of God.

    So, man fell, died, yet didn't lose all of faculties? Man's will fell in the fall. It is now bent towards sin and self. His faith, in his fallen state, is towards anything, anybody BUT God.


    And consequently lost it in the fall.


    Wrong. That faith we possessed pre-conversion, saved nary a soul. Nary. A. Soul. Unless you are 'born from above', born again, born anew, made a new creature, you can not see the Kingdom of heaven.
     
    #1 SovereignGrace, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  2. Revmitchell

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    For the wages of sin is death. Period. I did not say it God did.
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

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    [​IMG]
     
  4. SovereignGrace

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    I tried to 'like' your post and about 2-3 times I accidently hit 'dislike'. Just wanted to clarify what I did if you get a bunch of notifications.
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    No you liked it. You can always undo any of those indications in that row at any time.
     
  6. SovereignGrace

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    What I meant was I tried to like that post and accidently hit dislike. I undid that rating and tried to like it again, and hit dislike again. I am on a nook, and my big fingers sometimes hit the wrong icon. I didn't know if every time I accidently hit dislike, it would show up as a notification saying I disliked a post of yours multiple times. Just wanted to clear the air of my faux pas.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    Na I never saw it. Thanks for letting me know.
     
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  8. BrotherJoseph

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    Hi Brother Sovereign and RevMwc,

    Many who believe in free will and general atonement often like to use the verse in Genesis 4:7 where God said to Cain, "If thou dost well, shalt thou not be accepted?" to support their doctrines

    I think John Gill in his The Cause of God and Truth answered these objections put forth in this verse much better than I ever could or for that matter anyone else whom I have read on the topic, thus I will provide a few quotes from him regarding this verse. The full article http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part 1/section_01.htm, but I have posted what I feel are his main arguments below. A bit long, but well worth the read! I would challenge any after reading it to try to refute it on this thread. I find myself often going to the The Cause of God and Truth for commentary on so called "Arminian proof texts" and more often than not Gill's exegesis Biblically buries them.

    BELOW IS FROM JOHN GILL CAUSE OF GOD AND TRUTH ON GENESIS 4:7

    "3. Is there any foundation for such a proposition in these words, which are hypothetically expressed, and therefore nothing absolutely to be concluded from them; that is to say, we are not to argue from God's saying to Cain, If thou dost well, therefore Cain had a power to do well, or to do that which is spiritually good, well; much less should we infer from hence, as one does, that "God could not have proposed the doing of good as a condition, if he had not given Cain sufficient strength whereby he was capable to do good."[1] Since God could not only have proposed the doing of good, but have required it according to his law, without being under obligation to give sufficient strength to obey; for though man by his sin has lost his power to obey the will of God in a right manner, yet God has not lost his authority to command; which he may use without obliging himself to find man sufficient strength to act in obedience to it. Besides,

    4. These words regard doing well, not in a moral, but in a ceremonial sense. Cain and Abel were very early taught the necessity, manner, and use of sacrifices; and in process of time they brought their offerings to the Lord, each according to his different calling and employment; the one brought of the fruit of the ground, the other of the firstlings of his flock. Now to Abel and his offering the Lord had respect, that is, he accepted him and his offering; but to Cain and his offering he had not respect; which made Cain very wroth, and his countenance fell; upon which the Lord expostulates with him after this manner, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou dost well,ean orqwV prosenegkhV , If thou hadst offered rightly,as the Septuagint renders the words which though it is not a proper literal translation of them, yet agreeable enough to their sense, shouldst thou not be accepted? Cain failed either in the matter or manner of his sacrifice; probably in the latter; since the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews observes, that by faith, Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain.(Heb. 11:4) Cain offered his sacrifice without faith, without any view to the sacrifice of Christ: he performed this his sacrifice hypocritically, in show and appearance only; he acted from no right principle, nor to any right end; and therefore his works, whatever show of righteousness they might have, are, by the apostle John, (1 John 3:12) rightly called evil; as are also all the works of wicked and unregenerate men. I proceed,

    II. To consider whether man's acceptance with God is on the account of his good works.

    1. There is a difference between the acceptance of men's works, and of their persons for them: there are many actions done by men, which are acceptable and well-pleasing to God, when they themselves are not accepted by him, on account of them. Besides, no man's works are accepted by him whose person is not previously accepted: God first had respect to the person of Abel, and then to his offering; which shows that his was not accepted for the sake of his offering. The best works of the saints are imperfect and attended with sin, and are only acceptable to God through Jesus Christ, in whom, and in whom only, who is the beloved, their persons are accepted and well-pleasing to God. No man can be justified or saved by his works, and therefore no man can be accepted with God on that account; which is the current doctrine of the sacred writings: this will help us to understand the true sense of such passages, as Acts 10:35, Romans 19:18, 2 Corinthians 5:9, compared with Ephesians 1:6, and 1 Peter 2:5.

    2. Nor do these words suppose that man's acceptance with God stands upon the foot of works. The Hebrew word >tas, for there is but one word in the original text, which our translators render, shalt thou not be accepted? signifies either excellency, as in Psalm 62:4, and may design the dignity of primogeniture, or honor of birth-right, as it does in Genesis 49:3, and so be rendered, shalt thou not have the excellency? that is, shall not the right of primogeniture continue with thee? shall not the honor and privilege of being the first-born abide with thee? thou needest not be afraid that this shall be taken from thee, and given to thy younger brother, who is willing to be subject to thee, and ready to serve thee; which well agrees with the latter part of the text, and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shall rule over him;or the word signifies an elevation,or lifting up;and is to be understood as Aben Ezra[2] observes of Mygp tas, a lifting up of the countenance, which was fallen, verses 5, 6, and then the sense is, if thou hadst done well, when thou broughtest thine offering, thou mightest have lift up thy face without spot,and doubtless thou wouldst have done so; but inasmuch as thou hast sinned and done evil, and which is to be seen in thy fallen countenance, sin lies at the door of thy conscience; which, when once opened, it will enter in, and make dreadful work; as it did a little after; which made him say, My punishment is greater than I can bear.But admitting that the word signifies acceptance, and be rendered, shall there not be an acceptance? it is to be understood, not of an acceptance of his person, but of his sacrifices and services.

    1. There is no acceptance of any man's person, but as he is considered in Christ the Mediator. Now as there is no reason to believe that ever Cain, who was of the wicked one, the devil, was ever in Christ, or ever considered in him; so there is no reason to conclude, that he either was, or that it was possible for him to be, accepted with God.

    2. The text does not speak of his doing well in a moral or spiritual, but in a ceremonial way; and not at all of the acceptance of his person, on the foot of so doing; but at most, only of the acceptance of his sacrifice and ceremonious services, supposing them rightly performed."
     
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  9. percho

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    I think my posts today in 4th rodeo answer these. Cain was of the wicked one, Cain was not of faith, his works would always be evil because he was not of faith and therefore it would be impossible for him to please God.

    The line, of faith, unto the seed of the woman. IMHO
     
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  10. HankD

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    I don't know if someone made this inquiry as I did not labor through the lengthy posts in this thread.
    So here goes:

    Can we safely say that God hears the prayer of the unregenerate because not only did Cain make a request of God but God honored it.

    Genesis 4
    13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
    14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
    15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

    HankD
     
  11. DHK

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    That is the problem many here have. If Cain is still dead in his sins, an unregenerate "dead" person whom God cannot hear (Eph.2:1), then how on earth, can God still communicate with him, as He does. Obviously their definition of "dead" is wrong. He is separated from God by sin (which is dead), but that doesn't mean all communication is lost. God is still reaching out to this man, even as he continued to reach out to Adam and Eve--though they were dead because they had eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    Cain and Abel both brought their respective sacrifices before the Lord. Was this the first time? Though the Scriptures do not specifically say, many believe it wasn't. This was a habitual practice, one that had been taught to them by their parents. But one day Cain thought his sacrifice of his works was just as good as his brothers of his sheep, so he brought a sacrifice of his own fruit of the land instead of a blood sacrifice which he had to obtain from his brother--something that no doubt irked him.
    But God required a blood sacrifice.
    "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin."

    He was taught that. He disobeyed; rebelled, just like his father had done.
    He had a choice. He was not compelled. God did not create him to sin. God is not the author of sin. He was not predestinated to go to hell. He chose to rebel against the Lord of his own free will just as Abel chose to sacrifice a lamb of his own free will. It was their respective choices.
    Abel offered in faith believing God would accept his sacrifice.
    Cain did not have that faith. He did not have any faith at all. He offered "in doubt" not knowing whether or not God would accept his gift.
    "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
     
    #11 DHK, Mar 9, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
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  12. HankD

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    Yes, Cain is an enigma. It may be that God used Cain (after all we are ALL His creatures) to establish early on in His word what unbelief looks like and how unbelief behaves in the presence of common grace.

    After all if God is omni-everything that means He must of necessity hear everything/everyone else how can the world be judged by "every idle word"?

    Nonetheless, Cain made a request via a complaint to God and God honored the request and put a mark of protection upon Cain.

    HankD
     
  13. SovereignGrace

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    Not I

    How did Lazarus hear? How did those pile of bones in the valley of dry bones hear? You need to quit focusing on men's insufficiencies and looking to God and His sufficiencies. Satan is as spiritually dead as any and yet God conversed with him.

    Nekros. ;) I thought you were a literalist?

    All communication from man's side is lost. However, when God talks, even the dead hear. He's that powerful.

    However, God made a sacrifice for Adam and Eve. He left Cain to his own devices. Major difference.

    Abel's was a blood sacrifice and Cain's wasn't. Hebrews 9:22 rings true.

    Proof? Many can be wrong. You may be right, and I am sure you're not dogmatic about it. But I don't know one way or the other. Any links to some who think this wasn't the first time?

    Agreed.

    Agree.

    Agree. People freely choose to rebel.

    Agree. None hold to this. Just others accuse us of believing this...but we don't.

    None are.

    People freely make choices, but those choices are within the confines of their nature. People freely choose to rebel because it's within their nature to do so.

    Agree.

    But you keep saying all men have faith? And now you are saying Cain did not have faith? o_O

    I don't know about this Monsieur. We know what he offered God was not pleased with it. But where does it say Cain offered his sacrifice 'in doubt'?
     
  14. HankD

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    Hmm, so God can hear the prayer of the unregenerate.
    Well, it stands to reason after all, He is God and omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

    HankD
     
  15. SovereignGrace

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    Does God hear the unregenerates' prayers ? I'd say yes. But does He acknowledge them? No. When we pray, we are to pray to God through Jesus' name. The unregenerate have no authority to call upon God in the name of Jesus. Nil. Zilch. Nada. Zip. Zero.
     
  16. SovereignGrace

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    DHK, you previously stated Cain had no faith at all. Those were your words ver batim.

    Now, how does this notion jive with your 'all men have faith' & 'faith is innate' stances?
     
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  17. Internet Theologian

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    Wow. All men have innate faith (according to the teachings of dhk) except for Cain? Waiting for the spin to be put on this one. It's coming. Wait for it.
     
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  18. Internet Theologian

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    You're showing the inconsistency of your teaching that all men HAVE innate, inherent faith. Except of course for Cain (according to your teaching). Not to 'put you on the spot' just going by what you teach. Nothing personal. :)

    So, if he offered his offering in faith with no doubt it would have been accepted?
     
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  19. SovereignGrace

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    I am sure he won't know why he typed it that way. He said that once after he stated 'saving faith' in one of his postings. Deep down inside...he knows. :)
     
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  20. SovereignGrace

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    [​IMG]
     
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