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Featured Cain and God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Feb 16, 2016.

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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    That is what I have tried to point out from the chapter of, the faith, eleven Hebrews. To faith or unto faith about 1 to 3 million people passed through the sea. A few days or weeks later they were wanting a golden calf made.

    They did not pass through the sea because of something they believed about God but because God through them was going send his Son, the faith, into the world, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
     
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    By Faith Enoch was Translated, by Enoch's Faith He was Translated. It doesn't say Because of the Faith God gave to Enoch He was Translated. Cain was told by God do that which is right, that is believe and be saved, yet if God gives Faith wouldn't He have said to Cain, since I will not supply you with faith don't do that which is right because you can't I won't allow you too. That is what saying God gives Faith to some and not others has God saying. Yet we see Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    God told Cain to do that which was right and he would be accepted, yet if God supplies the Faith then God would have been lying to Cain for God would have to supply Faith for Cain to be accepted, He told Cain to do that which was right, that is place his faith in the Savior that was promised and offer the blood sacrifice. Can God lie, NO by no means.
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by (out of) faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith. YLT R3:29

    Would you give me your thoughts relative to, out of faith, as compared to, through, the faith.

    Is that wording, out of faith and through the faith, one of circumcision and the other of uncircumcision, relative to the wording in Gal 3 23,25 of before the faith came and after the coming of the faith. Also of note would be verse 14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    Does that mean because he was without faith?
    Did he all of a sudden generate, faith or did God translate Paul from unbelief unto belief, all of a suddenly?
     
  5. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    The bolded, it mans God NEVER 'initiates the process' in those that perish, right?
     
  6. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    He wills that all those who perish should perish?
    'Elect' in this case being picking who to save?
     
  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Jesus came directly to Saul. Great light shown around Him, he went to his knees and heard the voice of Jesus. When he was told Jesus was speaking he said, notice Jesus didn't tell him what to do Sail asked but Jeaus go into the city. Paul had to choose to go, Ananias had to choose to go both had to use volition both had to make choices. Saul had to believe and faith came to him because He saw the light and believed it was Jesus.
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    In the fall, all of Adam's faculties such as love and faith became tainted by sin. This also was passed down to all his posterity. The unregenerate have faith in everything BUT God. This faith is innate and will save nary a soul. The unregenerate have love in everyone/everything BUT God. This love is innate and will save nary a soul.

    In the divine quickening, the unregenerate is regenerated and infused with love and faith and they exercise them in salvation. That is why it is said "thy faith has saved thee".
     
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And praytell, who are the one who seek Him? The bible explicitly states NONE seek Him. I reiterate...NONE.

    And again, praytell, who are those who seek Him? Hmmmmm?

    You're stance is contrary to any properly exegeted verse in all 66 books.


    This innate faith stuff needs to go. Innate faith is having faith in everything/everyone BUT God. The faith one has in his/her spouse is NOT the same faith that is exercised in salvation. Innate faith is within man and will not save one soul. Divine faith, given by God, is what saves.
     
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The context of Romans 7 is Paul addressing the believers at Rome and all believers of all time and not everybody who has ever lived. Whether we live or whether we die, we die unto the Lord is addressing believers and not believers.

    And praytell, what about those who never heard the gospel and never knew of Christ's existence? You are taking one verse here and divorcing it from the entire context of the book of Titus.

    For the grace that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

    The context is that the grace of God, which is Jesus Christ, teaches believers how to live. It does not teach everybody. If that grace teaches everybody, then we have an awful sorry teacher with all the wickedness going on in the world.


    In Him we live and move and have our being. Believers are the only ones in Him.

    Everyone is commanded to repent, yes. Not everyone has that ability however. Even repentance is a gift of God, and not everyone is given that gift, either.
     
    #70 SovereignGrace, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And if Saul said 'naw, I don't wanna...."????
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Who are you referring to that have never heard the gospel? Tell who hasn't heard God is going to send a savior?
     
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    He would have remained blinded and God would have stopped the persecution by him.
     
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Pouring your theology into the text, eh? It said by faith. Period. It didn't say by Enoch's faith or God's faith, but by faith. Period. Now, faith that saves is not innate but God-given.


    It merely stated by faith.


    And Cain's wicked heart was already exposed as he had already killed Abel, his brother.

    Not once did Cain ask for forgiveness after killing Abel. Not once did he show remorse, repentance. Cain was out for Cain. Period.

    That is exactly what He does. He quickens,. makes alive, divinely quickens whosoever He chooses to.

    This promise was not given to everybody without exception. Those who perished in the flood died without eternal life. The Egyptians who drowned in the Red Sea died without having eternal life. Those Jews who cried 'crucify Him, crucify Him", died not having eternal life. The promise of eternal life is extended to His chosen people. Period.

    And yet Cain did not do what is right and repent. Cain was looking out for Cain. Period.

    No 'ifs'. He does.

    Quit spouting such nonsense.

    Bingo.

    And Cain failed to do this. His wicked heart was exposed by God. He asked him were was his brother and he scoffed and said "am I my brother's keeper?" No where does Cain show any remorse. His wicked heart precluded him from doing so.
     
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    What of those who died nanoseconds after Christ did? Those who were living in modern day Alaska? Did the gospel get to them who died at the same time Jesus did? Those who died in modern day south America at the time of Christ's ministry? Those who died there, did they hear the gospel before they died?
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Then God would have sought out another one to take Saul of Tarsus' place?
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I don't think he was physically born that way, perhaps John the Baptist was - being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb but then again I believe John the Baptist was an exception as it appears that he must have been born of the Spirit while in his mother's womb. It could be possible that the "elect" (those who will eventually believe) are predisposed to hearing and heading the gospel. I don't know for sure, there is no proof text (apart from the debatable "predestination" texts).

    All of us being born dead in trespasses and sin seems to exclude that possibility yet predisposing could still be a definite possibility though a seeming contradiction. It was that way with me, though I was running/hiding from God before my new birth there was a definite yearning to be acceptable to Him. One or two of the prophets seems to claim a relationship with God from the womb but then again they also are special cases like John the Baptist.

    No if you mean physical birth. Yes if you mean spiritual birth.
    Good works are only "good" works if there has been a new birth or a circumcision of the heart.

    Just as Cain's "good" work was good in his own eyes but was in reality it was evil and self gratifying. The object of Cains faith was himself that he was good in and of himself (unlike his father) therefore his sacrifice must be acceptable. He had the devil's face to face knowledge of God but was devoid of trusting faith in God whose Spirit was striving with him that he was indeed evil like his father Adam.

    Later he proved that he was of the devil by murdering his brother.

    No question about our faith as the scripture plainly declares that Jesus is the author and finisher (He wrote the owners manual) of our faith

    In a sense our good works are our own good works for which we will be rewarded if we walk in the Spirit and allow Him to do good works through us and be His co-workers and don't grieve Him by habitually wandering off from His leading.

    HankD
     
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    That is correct but you see because of His Foreknowledge about Saul, God knew the choice Saul would make. And Saul because of God's foreknowledge was elected and chosen to be the 12th Apostle who replaced Judas.
     
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The Gospel has been preached to all mankind since the Fall. Adam told his children, Seth passed it on. Noah, Japheth, Shem and Ham passed it down to their children. When God scattered mankind and gave them languages many of each language passed the gospel down. So that even the tribes of native Indians had a belief in the Great Father who created the world and would send a savior, many believed that. Were those who accepted the Gospel of John the Baptist and hadn't heard of Jesus any less saved than those who had heard of Jesus. When they heard about Jesus they believed the story because they had believed John.
     
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oh lawd...please quit misapplying God's divine foreknowledge, He foreknew the choices Saul of Tarsus would make. He knew because he was a chosen person by God. You have God cow-towing to man's decisions. That is not the biblical God. That is not how God is portrayed in the bible. Not even close.
     
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