Cain's sacrifice

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by menageriekeeper, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
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    Why exactly did God not accept Cain's offering?

    Was it Cain's attitude or was it the fact that is wasn't a blood offering? Or was it both?

    Did God ordain, at the time Adam and Eve were put out of the Garden, a blood sacrifice for sin? (Gen 3: 21)
     
  2. Marcia

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    Hebrews 11.4 says that Abel's offering was accepted because it was done in faith. I think this implies that Cain gave his offering maybe as a routine thing or without faith. Since it is impossible to please God without faith, then it seems this was a faith issue.

     
  3. menageriekeeper

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    Okay then, if it was just a faith issue(and I don't doubt that was a part of it) then would Cain's fruit and vegetable sacrifice have been acceptable if he had given with faith? (keep in mind Hebrews 9:22- Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin)

    If so why then did Christ have to die for our sins if all that is needed is faith?
     
  4. Marcia

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    These are my thoughts:
    1. Yes, Cain's offering would have been acceptable even if had just been fruit and veggies since there is nothing indicated in the Bible that these offerings were for the forgiveness of sins. Offerings for forgiveness were mandated by God later under Moses.
    2. Christ had to die because for forgiveness, since there had to be blood shed for forgiveness, but Cain and Abel just made offerings - the Bible does not say they were for forgiveness.
     
  5. Marcia

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    Cain and Abel's offerings could have just been for thanking God. Even under Moses not all the offerings were for forgiveness of sins -- some were thank offerings. The grain offerings seemed to be this way (see Lev. chapter 2).
     
  6. menageriekeeper

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    Well it must be my 'Word of Faith?' training showing up again.

    I have been taught and believed for many years that when God killed the first animals to make coverings for Adam and Eve that He set the precedence of a blood sacrifice for the covering/remission of sin.

    With that understanding, the problem with Cain's sacrifice was not only his attitude, but also that it didn't follow God's command/precedence.

    Understand that the sacrifice only covered the sin until the true remission was given at Christ's death and ressurection.

    Even in Lev. 2 there is a difference made between the grain offering and the sin offering. It makes no mention that the grain covers any kind of sin.
     
  7. michelle

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    I believe it to be both. From the beginning of the fall, we see that God must have provided a blood sacrifice and to which was representative of Jesus Christ, even all the way at the beginning. We see that after Adam and Eve sinned, they were naked:


    Genesis 3

    7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


    WE see that they "made themselves aprons" to cover their nakedness, and they did this using fig leaves of the fig tree.


    We are also naked prior to salvation. WE see here:


    Genesis 3

    21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.


    The Lord provided their covering and made the aprons that they "made themselves" from nature useless, and not approved of by God. If God made them coats of skins, he would have shed the blood of the animal that they came from, which would be included in their covering, as God provided it. Just as God provides us the covering of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God who hung upon the tree, and also the Holy Spirit, as by God's providence, not of our own, from our own making from nature. Cain and Abel would have been aware of this. Cain shows that he offered a sacrifice of his own from nature, just as Adam and Eve did, to which God did away with, and provided them with a covering from an animal sacrifice. Abel had faith that this is what God desired, and so obeyed. Cain did not. So I think it involves both.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. freeatlast

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    </font>[/QUOTE]menageriekeeper
    Marcia has it part right. There was a faith issue, but her understanding ends there. Faith is not simply believing in what you are doing. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
    So based on Hebrews 11 they both heard from God what to bring. What made what Able brought more acceptable was that Able did so by faith. Faith is an deed put into action, because God tells us to do it or believe it a certain way. Cane however evidently felt that he had a better way and did not believe that the blood sacrifice was the only way to approach God. Cane did not act in faith. At least not biblical faith.

    There was another thread on repentance about is it or should repentance be preached for salvation. One problem today is that people do not understand repentance. The same applies with faith and what happens is that many will claim salvation and remain lost. They either do not have real saving faith or they have not repented. Either will cause the person to be deceived into thinking that they are saved when they are not and even though they believe in Jesus as being who He claimed to be they will hear "I never knew you".. Jesus made that clear in Matt. 7:22.
    So the problem with the sacrifice of Cane was that it was not what God had called to give. Cane lacked faith even though he knew God was real and believed in God. Cane is the example of the religious many in the churches today. They believe in God and Jesus, they go through the motions and they remain lost. They have a type of faith, but not a biblical faith. Their faith is that of Cane.
     
  9. menageriekeeper

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    But is that a faith problem or an obedience problem?

    Is it clear from the scripture given that Cain knew what he was supposed to do?
     
  10. freeatlast

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    That is what faith is, obediance from a pure heart. That is why i tried to point out that many today do not have real biblical fai and remain lost. The righteous live by faith and that faith leads them to obediance. This is why faith without works is dead.
     
  11. michelle

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    Amen!!! Freeatlast! I agree. You explained it very well. Thanks.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  12. Bro. James

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    Cain's offering:

    Was the wrong type--"without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". There was no blood in Cain's offering. Mankind has the same problem--we want to worship God our way.

    The scripture also says that "Sin was at Cain's door". Cain then killed his brother.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. blackbird

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    Too, Cain produced from the "fruit of the ground"---the best that the ground could muster!!

    Remember the judgment placed up Adam?? God said, "Cursed be the ground for thy sake." and "From the sweat of thy brow shalt thou labor"

    See?? Cain brought fruit that pictured salvation by works! He brought the finest that works could produce--from a cursed ground!!
     
  14. michelle

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    Amen!!! Blackbird, and excellent point! I was trying to also make that point, but your explanation of it is much clearer.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    How about the fact that Cain only "brought of the fruit" and Abel brought "brought of the firstlings of his flock."

    You think that is an important aspect?
     
  16. Phillip

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    Here is the question. Cain obviously knew that he was to give a "sacrifice" to the Lord. Who told him this? Who told him what type of sacrifice to make? The law was given to Israel through the Penteteuch. Cain did not have this. Did Cain have knowledge of a blood sacrifice in his heart? Had God told Cain that a blood sacrifice was necessary for the forgiveness of sin?

    What if Cain's brother would not sell him any of his animals to sacrifice? Was Cain capable of hunting down wild animals?

    (Clue, I don't think there was any question to the fact that this was a "sin" sacrifice, because sin was already in the world.)

    What does this have to do with comparing "faith" and "works" if the law was based on "works"? (A real question, not an argument.)

    Why was the "law" based on works? What was the REAL reason the law was so binding and legalistic? (Clue, does the law show that man cannot keep the law without......what?)
     
  17. menageriekeeper

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    Okay Bro. James, then Cain had an obedience problem(as in not just a faith problem). He knew what he was supposed to do but just didn't want to do it that way.

    I think faith was a secondary problem. Remember the Lord still spoke aloud and in person, so there is no doubt Cain had knowledge of who God was and what he did.

    That brings up another question.....Which is more important, faith or obedience? Are they of equal importantance? Can there be faith without obedience? Can there be obedience without faith?


    C4K brings up an interesting question. If Cain had carefully picked the best of his first crop would that have been more acceptable to God?

    My personal opinion is no. I base that on Gen 4:6 where the Lord tells Cain specifically to "do what is right and you will be accepted".

    Blackbird, that is a new idea. I certainly had never thought of this passage as being a picture of salvation by works. Please give your answer to the faith/obedience questions.
     
  18. Liz Ward

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    Grain offerings were acceptable under the Mosaic law. Whilst it is very convenient to say that Cain's sacrifice was not acceptable because there was no blood, I think that is reading into the scriptures something that the scriptures do not say.
     
  19. Bro. James

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    Who told Cain how to sacrifice?

    His Daddy--Adam--he also told Abel who got it right.

    Being a Dad is an awesome responsibility.


    Selah,


    Bro. James
     
  20. Phillip

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    Exactly, Bro. James. Thank you.
     

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