Calling all Calvinists

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    I have a question for those Calvinists who know Greek grammar, in connection with John 3:15-17

    in verses 15 and 16 we have "me_apolentai" (might not perish), and in verse 17 "sothe" (might be saved). Both words in the "subjunctive mood". Why is this so, where we know this "mood" is used in Greek do denote "condition", and also where "some degree of uncertainty" is meant?

    Do we conclude from this, that the salvation of the "elect", as Clavinists hold that "world" here means, is not something "certain" and "conditional"?

    As you will be aware, to denote absolute certainlty, Jesus, Who is the speaker here, would have employed the "indicative mood"

    I await your responses
     
  2. icthus

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    The silence shows that the Calvisists cannot answer this. The ONLY possible answer can be to take "world" refer to the "whole human race", everyone without exception, and then it all fits perfectly.
     
  3. whetstone

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    yours is a spirit of combativeness, not discussion. just because no one gives you the time of day doesn't mean no one has the answer. That's like daring God to kill you. He may have better things to do.
     
  4. russell55

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    The salvation of the elect IS conditional. God just works faith within them so that they meet the condition.

    BTW, the subjunctive tense doesn't have to denote uncertainty. It can denote purpose as well, in the same way that the subjunctive can denote purpose in English. For instance, if I say that I'm going to buy groceries so that we may eat supper, I'm saying more about the purpose of my trip to the store than I am about the uncertainty of supper at my house.

    If it denotes uncertainty here, then what the verse is saying is that there is uncertainty whether "believing ones" will be saved.
     
  5. El_Guero

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    Whetstone,

    I have not seen much discussion in this part of the board ... IMHO ...
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    You mean like he does for All who are willing to be saved? All who hear and believe.

    There is nothing special then for the "elect" now is there?
     
  7. russell55

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    Yes.

    Yes there is, because it's the elect that are brought to willingness, the elect are those whose ears are opened and within whom faith is worked.
     
  8. whetstone

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    haha true true.
     
  9. icthus

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    The salvation of the elect IS conditional. God just works faith within them so that they meet the condition.

    BTW, the subjunctive tense doesn't have to denote uncertainty. It can denote purpose as well, in the same way that the subjunctive can denote purpose in English. For instance, if I say that I'm going to buy groceries so that we may eat supper, I'm saying more about the purpose of my trip to the store than I am about the uncertainty of supper at my house.

    If it denotes uncertainty here, then what the verse is saying is that there is uncertainty whether "believing ones" will be saved.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Firstly, do you know what the "U" in TULIP means? Secondly, yes the uncertainity does mean that eternal live is not a guarantee at all costs, and falling away is possible.
     
  10. whetstone

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    if falling away is possible, why do you suppose God calls it 'eternal' life I wonder? Why didn't He call it 'possible' life, or 'conditional' life? This isn't an argument- just a question I ponder.
     
  11. icthus

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    You know Whetstone, that is a good question. But looking at the history of Israel, where God made eternal Covenants with them, and yet, because of their unbelief they no longer are "the people of God". The book of Hebrews has been called by some "the book of warnings", for we read things like, "how shall we escape if we neglect (not reject) so great salvation..."(2:3); for we (Christians) are made partners of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (3:14), etc. Where the language makes this "conditional", and requires us to do something.
     
  12. russell55

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    Yes, I do. It stands for unconditional ELECTION. It means ELECTION is unconditional. It does not stand for unconditional SALVATION. Salvation IS conditional.

    The point remains--the subjunctive does not have to mean there's uncertainty.
     
  13. icthus

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    Russell55, you misundertand the "subjunctive mood". You says: "For instance, if I say that I'm going to buy groceries so that we may eat supper", "you may eat supper", is correct for the subjunctive, as there is no guarantee that you ever will. You may intend to eat it, but something else might prevent this happening. If you says "I shall eat supper", this then would require the indicative mood, as it is a certain act. But, until us actually do eat the supper, you could not strictly use the indicative, as the subjuncitive is better grammar.
     
  14. whetstone

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    I see no reason to believe Israel has somehow lost it's eternal covenant. Again I ask- Why would God use the word eternal if He doesn't mean eternal? Why say something will last forever if it won't?

    Also- if you weren't required to do anything for your salvation, why must you do something to keep it?
     
  15. icthus

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    Does "eternal" always have the meaning "perpetual"? The Greek word it comes from is "aionios", which has the meanings: "lasting for an age, perpetual, eternal", and is also used for "holding an office or title for life" (see Liddle & Scott Greek Lexicon on "aionios"). Like in the phrase used in the first century, "may the king live forever (Greek "aionios"), but this cannot be taken to mean "time without end"?

    God made "Everlasting" Covenant with Israel in the OT, but it remains that they are no longer "His people", as this has now been replaced by "the Church"
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    When you post something silly late on Sunday night, don't be surprised that no one answer in less than an hour.

    First, not all Calvinists define "world" as "elect." That is actually a minority view, I believe. Second, your own verse shows how ridiculous your assertion is. You can't hang your hat on the subjunctive being "not certain and conditional" because v. 16 uses the subjunctive to promise salvation to the believers. Surely you would not argue that believers only "might be" saved, but not "certainly saved" ...

    The word everlasting sometimes means a long period of time, rather than endless. But the covenant God made with Israel is still good (cf Gal 3:16; and too many other passages to list here). The church has not replaced Israel. They are still his people, and when the repent, they will be restored.
     
  17. MargoWriter

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    haha true true. </font>[/QUOTE]we know why ... we know why ... ROFL ... but we're not telling ya ... [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] :D [​IMG]

    wa ha ha ha ha !
     
  18. russell55

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    No I don't. It doesn't always denote uncertainty. Even in the English example I used, the point of the subjunctive isn't uncertainty, but purpose.

    "Shall", "should", or "will" can be a legitimate translation of a subjunctive mood. In fact, in this case (John 3:16), either "shall", "should" or "will" is the choice of every translation I've looked at. Doesn't that tell you something?
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Yes.

    Yes there is, because it's the elect that are brought to willingness, the elect are those whose ears are opened and within whom faith is worked.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is worked? You simply do not understand the essence of faith!
     
  20. russell55

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    That anyone has faith is a result of God's work within them.
     

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