Calvin missed this aspect of Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alfred Persson., Sep 17, 2007.

  1. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    KJV Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    One of the just and right judgments of God was Predestination of the Elect unto salvation.

    “How is God just and right,” someone might ask, “when He said all have the Free Will choice of life or death (De 30:19 cp Ge 4:7), but in fact God had already predestined all who would be saved, even before the world began, and not according to any choice they made in this life. (Eph 1:5; 2:8)?

    Paul’s words supply the answer, but we must deduce it.

    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.-kjv

    Did “foreknow” (proginosko) is “to know before,” did “predestine” (proorizo) is to “foreordain.” Foreknowing is coordinate with predestinating, naturally read, the first causes the second.

    Should we violate Ockham’s razor and view this “not as metaphysically true, but in concession to human limitations of thought” (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Bellingham, WA), or allow parsimony dictate as it is the common characteristic evident in correct interpretation?

    Accepting the natural reading doesn’t contradict salvation by grace alone as it is clear God already knows who are His, none of the foreknown fail to be conformed to Jesus.

    So nothing said so far contradicts salvation by grace alone:

    Ephesians 2:5-9 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    “Paul elaborated, And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun “this” (touto). Though some think it refers back to “grace” and others to “faith,” neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. (In Eph. 1:15 and 3:1 touto, “this,” refers back to the preceding section.) Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (2:4-8a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is “not from yourselves”), but rather, its source is God’s grace for “it is the gift of God.” –Walvoord, John F. The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Victor Books (Wheaton, IL), 1983-1985.


    So what was this foreknowing for if it’s not for God’s benefit?

    There are scriptural parallels to God knowing His own perfectly, yet He still tests their loyalty:

    Psalm 11:
    4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
    5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
    6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
    7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

    Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

    So why does God test those He already knows are His? One answer is in the book of Job, such tests occur for the benefit of others:

    KJV Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them….9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    Hence, tests of loyalty occur so that angelic observers can see for themselves God is not wrong about who are His.

    KJV 1 Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

    Of course there are a plethora of other reasons for trial in the life of the believer that are completely unrelated to foreknowing before predestining:
    John 15:2 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    KJV Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    But those are irrelevant to this thesis which suggests God trys the righteous to prove the rightness of His choosing them, to others.

    What of the wicked? In parallel with Ro 8:29, it doesn’t appear God wants to know the wicked as He does the upright:

    Ps 37:18-20
    18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
    19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Nahum 1:7-8
    7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
    8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.=kjv

    Evidently the wicked are irrelevant to God, as He is good. Therefore God doesn’t want to know them, and so they perish.

    So where am I going with this?

    Suppose two blind men were describing the same elephant. The one feeling the tail seems to contradict the one touching its ears. But to the one viewing the entire elephant, the contrary statements make perfect sense.

    So Paul has in mind a much greater construct than anything proposed by either Pelagius or Calvin. Its not free will versus Election by grace, its God knowing who are His, but choosing to reveal the rightness of that choice to all who might wonder.

    Consistent with this construct, the verb proginosko means God “knew these before.”

    Before what? Their existence? Nothing that exists does so apart from God or His knowing. God is omnipresent, He fills all things, including Eternity (Is 57:15). God cannot be contained by time and space, the very existence of that is dependant upon Him (1 Ki 8:27; Col 1:15). Hence we read Eph 2:6 “made us sit in heavenly places” or Re. 13:8 “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”)

    So there is no “before” God’s knowing, for anything that exists.

    However contingencies, “what if” scenarios which never achieve objective existence, can be objects of God's foreknowledge.

    So the data leads naturally to this conclusion, God already knew all who are His, but chose to put them to the test, in a contingency that evidenced the rightness of their election: When their will was truly free, they chose God.

    This was done for the benefit of creation, not for Him. He already knows who are His.

    Lest God’s Elect, whether human or angelic (1 Ti 5:21), mourn the non selection of loved ones, God reveals via foreknowledge why some were selected so all questions about this can be answered. It would be an act of kindness not to foreknow the non elect, as then the full measure of their evil is known only to God.


    God offers salvation to those not selected, but these never take Him up on His offer:

    KJV Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

    KJV Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    So all creation will see the Judgments of God:

    KJV Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    It was God’s good pleasure and will to save the Elect, and do so in a way that would allow them to enjoy eternity even though some of their loved ones weren’t selected.

    KJV Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    It is written:

    KJV 1 John 3:8For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    This means none of God’s elect will be lost, otherwise the devil’s work wasn’t destroyed.

    God “love” (1 Jn 4:16) and loved us first:
    1 John 4:16-19 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love…18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    It follows none of the elect can be lost, otherwise God would mourn their absence for all eternity.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    END
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    Your first post and its 7 miles long! What aspect of foreknowledge did Calvin miss? Can you compare it to Calvin's teaching with your own?
     
  3. donnA

    donnA
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    first post is supose to be in the welcome forum to introduce yourself.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    Can you even remember your first post? 17,000 !!! :eek:
     
  5. donnA

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    Oh gee, I reached 17,00 and didn't even know it.
    yes, I remember it. It was a welcome post, and I told about my expereince at the board I left to find the bb, very bad expereince, christian board with everyone on it, witches etc. and not moderated well at all, some guy had horrorable things in his signature about Jesus and claimed ot be a christian, and soeone defended him as a christian. horrorable place.
    that was my first post on the bb.
     
  6. Alfred Persson.

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    Its worth the read. Calvin, and just about everyone else, don't exposit the idea God might reveal how just and right His predestination of the elect is, via foreknowledge.

    I posit His foreknowledge as His "documentation" proving He was absolutely fair electing unto life, some.
     
  7. Jarthur001

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    I have yet to read your 1st post. But this caught my eye.

    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    also one more for the fun of it.

    What is Gods foreknowledge as you see it?

    Thanks...and welcome to the BB.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    well...I just now read most of your 1st post, and the 1st word that came to mind was WOW!!

    Yes.....WOW do we have some work to do. Yes we do. :)
    I hope you will stick around for a bit. I hope you are not a poster and runner.


    You said (proginosko) is “to know before. What does "know" mean?
     
  9. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    ntntntntntntnt
     
    #9 Alfred Persson., Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    This thread as the title indicates is a response to Calvin's teaching. Now, I possess his Institiutes but have not read them. I assume that you have in that your writing to correct his teaching. Where did I miss your engagment with his writings? Can you site the pages and books you used from Calvin that your writing against.

    Thanks.
     
  11. Alfred Persson.

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    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    ntntntntntntnt
     
    #11 Alfred Persson., Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  12. Alfred Persson.

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    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    ntntntntntntnt
     
    #12 Alfred Persson., Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  13. Alfred Persson.

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    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    ntntntntntntnt
     
    #13 Alfred Persson., Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  14. Alfred Persson.

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    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    ntntntntntntnt
     
    #14 Alfred Persson., Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  15. Alfred Persson.

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    In your mind, what is "absolutely fair electing" by God?

    Excuse the multiple posts, I didn't realize using the "back button," would post each edit as a separate post.

    That's a misstatement. God is all knowing, in Rom 8:29 its clear He already knows the elect, has already selected them.

    The issue in 8:29, is predestining to being conformed...

    This follows logically from the text. We know universal salvation is incorrect, yet ALL God foreknew, are conformed. Therefore the non elect are irrelevant to this text, they are not being considered here at all. The entire relates only to the Elect God has already chose.

    Foreknowing led to the decision they be conformed without fail.

    God doesn't require foreknowledge to know what to do with anything that exists in time or space. That is true because all time and space consist in God.

    When we look at time, we must decide if scripture reveals Eternalism or Presentism, which is basically correct. Do things exist only in the "now, presently," or do they exist in time, past present and future:

    I submit Eternalism wins hands down:

    Revelation 13:8...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 2:6-7 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    The verbs are indicative, hence we already are in the heavenlies, and its in the coming ages this reality and the consequences of it, are shown to finite creatures.

    So when God chose to create, the lamb was then slain, all the elect were with Him in the heavenlies, and satan and his are already in the lake of fire.

    Finite creatures will experience this in the coming ages, but from God's perspective, it already happened, is yet to happen, and is present, For in HIm all things, including all time, consists:

    NKJ Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

    Hence, this act of foreknowing, which "causes" the predestining the elect to being conformed, wasn't done for God's benefit, He already knew why He did it. It then must be for our benefit that He based His decision on objective reasons, reasons we could say are just and right.

    It is consistent with the idea of God in scripture, the way He reveals Himself in the Word and in Creation, that He would reveal why He chose to conform some, and not others.

    To do less would be unlike the God of the Bible.
     
    #15 Alfred Persson., Sep 23, 2007
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  16. Alfred Persson.

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    I haven't read his commentaries, but I have heard this said:

    "The word 'foreknow' in the New Testament usage, as pointed out by Dr. W. G. T. Shedd, is employed in the sense of the Hebrew yada (know) which denotes love and favour. 'Not foreknowledge as bare prescience,' says Calvin, 'but the adoption by which God had always from eternity distinguished His children from the reprobate.' The Scriptures represent election as occurring in the past, irrespective of personal merit. '

    The Hebrew word YADA is not being used here, its meaning is irrelevant.

    proginosko "Five times in the New Testament. In all cases it means foreknow. Acts. 26:5; 1 Pet. 1:20; 2 Pet. 3:17; Rom. 11:2. It does not mean foreordain. It signifies prescience, not preëlection."-Vincent, Marvin Richardson: Word Studies in the New Testament. Bellingham, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2002, S. 3:95

    I shouldn't have mentioned Calvin without also mentioning Arminius, as both are refuted by my exegesis.

    The passage is not about election, its about God predestining those He already elected, to being conformed.

    It has nothing to do with salvation by grace, God already elected these according to the good pleasure of His will, and that is "not of ourselves, its a gift of God."

    I maintain God decided to predicate this conforming upon prescience, for our benefit, that we might know the rightness of God's choice, and not for His benefit at all. He already knows all things.
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    No big deal. Just pay your fine and your cool.

    is not. :)

    Indeed. But what does the word "know" mean?

    ok... and who is conformed to His image?

    you will never get anywhere till you understand the word foreknew.

    ok

    This is wrong. Has God not known all things at all moments even before He made? Did God need to look to see who would believe, in order to elect? Hogwash. God knew who would believe because He decreed it that way. Therefore it is election that comes 1st and based on the election God knows. God is NOT controlled by our actions.

    everything that exist belongs to time, other then God. That matter that God has made exist for a given time and will take up space made by God.

    Time is not God. Time was made by God. Space was made by God. Matter(man) was made by God.

    Both

    Then you have just shown why you are wrong

    misquoted all the time

    Has nothing to do with foreknowing..but great verses

    You have a bad understanding of time. The is a reason for the word "fore". Was God wanting to trick us, or did He really mean what He said? You must understand time as it touches Gods creation. Lets look at it this way. Is Christ coming back someday, or has He already come back? Has the battle of Armageddon happen or will it happen someday?

    Lets go back the other way. Was Christ slain before He died on the cross? If so, was He a spotless lamb? You seem to be teaching a "free grace" doctrine of Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin and the Grace Evangelical Society which has been labeled an heresy by many on this board.

    This is just not the case sir. You have placed the Lamb in the Cross, that has already been slain. You have shown a poor understanding of Greek.

    In other words, you disagree with Isa 43


    In each passage that deals with election, it is clear why. Because of Gods will, pleasure and purpose. Please do not add your own words.

    Unlike the way you want to paint God. The Bible is clear if you do not force your ideas on it.
     
  18. Bismarck

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    Question: the elect are fore-known before what?

    The elect are so chosen "before the foundation of the _________" ?
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    I will be glad to answer when someone tells me the meaning of fore-knew as seen in the Greek. You have quoted a few Greek words. Why not help us out on this one. :)
     
  20. Jarthur001

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    Notice the word..."fore" in the words "fore-known" and also found in the word "before". :)
     

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