Calvin on 1 John 2:2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Aug 2, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Some have asserted that Calvin did not teach particular atonement. Hopefully his commentary on 1 John 2:2 would settle what Calvin actually believed and taught:

    ***Edited.
     
    #1 TCGreek, Aug 2, 2007
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  2. DHK

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    These don't sound like the words of a man who supposedly believes in the doctrine of "limited atonement."
     
  3. Andy T.

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    There are varying degrees of limited atonement beliefs. From what I have heard (coming from my amatuer authority, since I've never read much of Calvin), Calvin himself had a more moderate view compared to some of his successors. RL Dabney is another example of the more moderate view. Some call it 4.5 point Calvinism.
     
  4. TCGreek

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    1. The following is what comes before:
    (emphasis mine).

    2. The following is what comes after:
    (emphasis mine).

    3. He is addressing the world of the elect.
     
    #4 TCGreek, Aug 2, 2007
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  5. TCGreek

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    The quote you isolated is a reference to what others are saying and not what Calvin believes.
     
  6. PrimePower7

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    "World of the elect?"

    Certainly you don't believe this, do you? I must ask what does "the whole world" mean if it doesn't mean all those living?

    Bill
     
  7. DHK

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    I isolated that part of the quote because there were some fanatics that went so far as to believe that even Satan himself could be saved. That is what Calvin did not believe, and we don't believe that either. That part of the quote that I isolate is no different than we non-Calvinists believe today.
     
  8. Allan

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    I think you to are trying to hard to make Calvin say what he did not intend. Calvin is not addressing the whole theological position but a part, more specifically a PASSAGE and that passages context.
    Please note his statement:
    Calvin did very much believe that Christ died for all men but Atonement was limited to those for to whom it was appropiated by faith. BUT in this quote he is addressing a specific passage and states the contexts as he sees it. Which BTW - no Non-Cal I know of disagrees with.

    If you doubt me, just read his commentaries which were written to accompany his Institutes for further clarification of his views. IF you want specifics I will be more than happy to accomodate you.

    Editted in:
    According to his writtings, he did not hold to the "Limited" view that the Reformers to hold. (pun intended - though not in a mean spirited way, I just don't get many opportunities to use puns :) )
     
    #8 Allan, Aug 2, 2007
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  9. TCGreek

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    1. Thank you, but I have all of his commentaries and other works.

    2. In the Institutes, Calvin clearly believes in Limited Atonement:3.21.7; 3.22.10
     
  10. Rippon

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    Allan , your position is nonsensical . If Christ died "for" anyone He made atonement for their sins . Christ's sacrifice propitiated the wrath of the Father for those whom He specifically "died for" .Christ did not die for anyone without atoning for their sins . Keep reading Calvin's "writtings" . I have given you proof enough time and time again . You had even charged that I had made up some of the things Calvin actually said . Your cause is a lost one Allan . But I really would concentrate on what the Bible say regarding "the Great Transaction "if I were you . I am not in the habit of checking with John Calvin for all of my beliefs . I am content to know that my convictions square with the Word of God . I am sure you believe that your beliefs also square with what the Bible teaches . But keep studying . I was around your age when I came to my settled convictions regarding the Doctrine of Grace . You have only known about Calvinism for 7 years or so . It's all so new to you .
     
  11. TCGreek

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    . I see the indirect quote of Calvin not just because of Satan but even the Reprobates, why he calls the extension of the blood of Christ monstrous.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    1. What do you mean that Calvin believed that Christ died for all men but atonement was limited to those who would appropriate it by faith?

    2. What do you mean by "appropriate it by faith?" (see Institutes 3.22.10 on Calvin).
     
  13. Humblesmith

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    In this passage, good Calvin clearly says "Though then I allow that what has been said is true, yet I deny that it is suitable to this passage." He says that it is true that grace is sufficient for all, efficient for the elect.

    As for 1 John 2.2, John himself explains what is meant by "world" later in the same chapter, for he says in v. 15: "Do not love the world or the things in the world" and the world contains "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" and that the the things in the world "are not of the Father." So in v.2, when Christ died "not for ours only, but for the whole world" then we must conclude that the world is the whole world, the world not of the Father. The strict Calvinists make the same author change the meaning of the same word in the same chapter.
     
  14. DHK

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    You can't disqualify the entire quote. There must be something there for Calvin to refer back to when he says:
    It seems fairly evident that what he also believes is an atonement that is provided for all.
     
  15. TCGreek

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    Are we reading the same quote? Are we addressing the same Calvin?
     
  16. Allan

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    Rippon, you do not have to lie in order to try to prove a point.
    I have never, stated you "made up some of the things Calvin actaully said". You stated that what I posted was out of context, it was from a tract that he had written and that Calvin held a different position on the death of Christ. I proved that what I posted did not in fact come from a tract but was from a 3rd volume of his writtings on the "Harmony of the Gospels", specifically addressing the subject we were debating. You were proved incorrect - agian. Unfortunately Rippon you have not once dispoven any historical statements I have provided about the views of other historical Calvinistcally minded brethren which held differing veiws to your modern version of Calvinism. As I have stated before many did not hold to the "L" (as given by present day Calvinists) that you flailingly cling to with slipping hands. So of course the biblical view of Christs death is nonsensical from you view, but that is ok just keep studying.

    FTR - I have finished studying Calvinism on the whole - If it takes more than 7 years of intense study then there is a serious biblical and spiriutal problem regarding that form of theology; However, through large amounts prayer, fasting, and study I am completely certain that God has lead me away from it and many of its assumptions while still holding many of its truths.
     
    #16 Allan, Aug 2, 2007
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  17. Allan

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    Neither of these in Calvins Institutes speaks of Christs death except in relation to those whom God knows and will specifically redeem - The Church.

    IOW- It speaks about the effectual work of the Atonement upon those who have/will recieve it by faith and not the full meansure of the "for whom Christ died".

    Let me show you from his commentaries:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1051310&postcount=19
    Regarding the Matt 26:28 and it alternate Mark 14:24

    Or here on John 3:16
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1009212&postcount=3
    And don't just stop there, go on through verse 17 and 18.
    I love this is verse 17:
    There are others of course - but I would love to hear how either of you would explain away Calvins own words regarding Christs death for all man (the human race) - grace offered and rejected, ext... in just these, not to mention the others not yet mentioned.
     
    #17 Allan, Aug 2, 2007
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  18. DHK

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    You are the one that made the original quote from Calvin are you not?
    Calvin says:
    I allow this to be true: "That Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect.
    As I said previously, even the non-Calvinist believes that.
     
  19. Allan

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    Yes, and yes.:thumbs:
     
  20. Allan

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    Amen. That is what we believe and preach.
     

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