Calvinism - a "house of cards'

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Very often we find Calvinist threads that try to ignore almost every part of the Bible except for one or two verses.

    The idea is that if we can ignore the rest of the Bible - and then "Do some redefining of terms" - and use a lot of inference and speculation - well then we can get 1 or 2 verses to appear to support Calvinism.

    Apparently this has to be done "card by card". Where each card is a verse or two lifted out of context from this or that chapter of the Bible - to make Calvinism appear to work.

    Then if the Arminian Bible student comes along and points out that the subject matter that is being highlighted in those verses - is found in a number of places - all of which contribute to the meaning well then "that card begins to crumble".

    Calvinist arguments are legendary for consistently trying to create a strained interpretation of the text away from the obvious and apparent meaning that it has in the chapter.

    So then "God so loved the WORLD that he gave ..." is turned into "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 calling them (and just them) the WORLD in John 3 - but He did not so love the each and every person without exception world... that He gave...".

    And so on.

    So the question is this - is it not obvious that each time the Arminian Bible student is confronted with such a myopic snippet-card on a given subject - that we will always enrich the subject by pointing to the many Bible texts that speak to that same subject.

    Instead of trying to get one text to delete another one - the way Calvinism is so often presented - it is much better to have a consistent overall view that accepts and even magnifies the details in all the texts that speak to the subject.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2013
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,904
    Likes Received:
    94
    OK...so in your worldview, if I have a Giunness with a steak that I'm going to hell. RIGHT!:tongue3:
     
  3. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,112
    Likes Received:
    104
    Depends. Draft or bottled? But seriously, I don't see the point of your response, or where you're coming from.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    A person can cherry pick scripture and make it say anything they want. I could teach that the sin nature is inherited from the mother, and I've got scripture to prove it;

    Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

    Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

    Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    I could take these three verses alone and build doctrine around it that man inherits his sin nature from his mother. And that is exactly how many do form their doctrine, by pulling scripture out of context and misapplying it.

    The person you quoted in the OP spent his entire time searching the scriptures, looking for any verse he could pull out of context and manipulate to support Calvinism.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,904
    Likes Received:
    94
    Why even consider the credibility of someone who's religious society is Seven Day Adventist. His object is to completely discredit Calvinism....home to Spergion, Martyn Lloyd Jones & a whole lot of very serious Orthodox Christian scholars. When those tacticts get employed I look at the whole package of the guy delivering the message to see if there isn't an u dercurrent before assigning credibility.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is supposed to be a comment on the OP??

    How so??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Indeed. It simply illustrates the "house of cards" principle. One or two verses where all other texts on the same subject are not allowed in the discussion and these two verses used to cancel out the others, rather than an inclusive solution that applies the details of all the verses on the same subject.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,904
    Likes Received:
    94
    Well is it correct?
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    What person was quoted in the OP? Bob was just giving his own thoughts.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Actually - I put that in a quote box - because it was a quote from one of Biblicist's opening posts.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90555

    And when texts were brought in on the same subject matter - the much-predicted response happens - he complains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Of course Calvinism is a house of cards. And of course the Calvinist leaning posters will present efforts to disparage, change the subject, and present false claims.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Another "card" in the 'house of cards" is the spin put on 2Peter 3

    2 Peter 3
    5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Calvinism's card brought in out of thin air edits/downsizes this "Any" and "ALL" statement to be "ALL of US SAINTS who exists when Peter is writing" and then later will insert this into the word "any" and ALL".

    "all the saints at the time of this letter PLUS all the LOST who will one day in the future be saints after hearing and accepting the Gospel".

    What an insert!! What a "card".
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,374
    Likes Received:
    728
    Your ignoring of the context and your rebellion against God's grace leads you to this wrong conclusion.You have been answered on this.That you do not welcome the answer does not equal any house of cards.:wavey:
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Not true at all - I point to the "entire world" and "entire earth" and "ALL the wicked" etc references IN THE TEXT.

    Your argument is that by failing to "INFER" all the limits that Calvinism needs (Calvinism lives by the motto "infer all you need") that I must be ignoring context.

    But nothing in the context says "All the saved today plus all the lost that will one day be saved in the future" --- and we both know it.

    Telling me you think context is being ignored does not solve that problem for Calvinism. It is merely an accusation without substance.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,374
    Likes Received:
    728
    I have answered you directly on this the other day...are you ignoring it?

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2056656#post2056656

    post 13
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The thread was closed "the other day" :) (I can't be blamed for everything as it turns out).

    But as it turns out - the post here - refutes the attempt to limit it to "only US saints alive when Peter is writing and none of the lost of Peter's day or ours".

    I think we both know that is true.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,374
    Likes Received:
    728
    BobRyan



    If you simply contrast the Beloved....with the scoffers....ie,...us/ they it is possible you will see it...

    Everyone this passage is speaking of...will be saved...every single elect person....that is what peter is actually writing about. TO_USWARD
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, he also quoted a recently banned member.
     
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    And you have been answered as well. It is ridiculous to believe God would have to be longsuffering, waiting for the elect to repent if Calvinism is true, as God could instantly regenerate any elect person with irresistible grace and that man or woman would immediately become perfectly willing to believe in Jesus.

    A child could see how ridiculous this view is. I guess you have to be enlightened to the "deeper" things of Calvinism to understand this foolish explanation. :laugh:
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,374
    Likes Received:
    728
    Winman
    What is foolish is you still do not understand that God is long -suffering.....with the wicked.....it has been explained to you and you still do not grasp it....:wavey: now that is funny...and yet sadly pathetic...

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Maybe someday you will grasp truth Winman....looks like it is not today however:wavey:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...