Calvinism and belief

yelsew says this>>>>When it comes time for our salvation, God looks upon the heart (mind and spirit) to determine whether or not we are worthy of being saved.

yelsew now i see your problem you need to rethink your position on and about a mans heart and a mans worthiness. now i see how you deem salvation in part on mans merits

 

You are wrong!

Man is not saved at the instant of belief. Salvation comes after this life is done! It is after this life that we pass from death into life. And we pass from death into life only if we believe in God and our hearts and minds are staid upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Merit implies effort, and it takes no effort to believe but merely the knowledge upon which to base belief. Knowledge takes no effort to collect, our senses are designed for that effortless process. Belief takes no effort on our part other than deciding what to believe. Our spirit consumes no energy from the flesh, but instead gives life to the flesh, so our spirit which consumes no energy and thereby expends no effort does not work to believe. So what merit is there in believing? NONE!

You fight with shadows my friend. Open your eyes of faith and see the light of God!

 

please feel free to critique the content. Please do so according to Scripture in context. Thanks. </font>[/QUOTE]and thank you for correcting yelsews errors. your doctrine is close to calvinism more then you think. the difference seems to be in your understanding of ability to believe vs. Gods drawing us. calvinism really should be replaced as being Pauline doctrine since that really predates the reformers. this board really should be pauline/arminianism debate. and your theme post should say pauline and belief, but to get back on topic you have answered yelsew well, and it should show you how arminianism tends to lean toward mans ability more and more.

 

ASSURANCE is given in the here and now that what is promised will come true in the next phase of life! We have FAITH that is the case, because it is something we have hope for, and our faith is the evidence that what we cannot yet see is a reality.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Therefore until we pass from this life to the next, we can only have FAITH because we do not have experience! We do not have knowledge that there is eternal life, we have the promise of eternal life. Therefore, if we endure in faith until the end we are promised that we shall have everlasting life.

The evidences of our faith and the reality of the promises resides in our behavior towards each other. That is, the fruits of the spirit of God are manifested in us through our faith in God to deliver on his promises.

It is for this reason that we are repeatedly warned in scripture to "keep the faith", to "stay the course", etc. We are warned against "falling away", and against false teachers. Why? If there is no possibility of one losing our salvation?

If we already have salvation, meaning we cannot possibly lose it, then why does the word of God give believers so many warnings and admonishments, and encouragements?

The truth is, that there is a danger of losing ones faith due to the cares of the world (the weeds, in the parable of the sower); or having one's faith snatched away by false teachers (the birds, in the parable of the sower); or simply one's faith dying because one cannot take the "heat" (the rocky soil in the parable of the sower). But faith that is strong cannot be lost for it is in good soil.

I hope that you can make the connection here Helen. While we are alive in the flesh, there is a danger. It is only after we depart the flesh that our eternal destiny is forever sealed. Keep your faith staid upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt have life everlasting.

 

Helen said:

Ransom, I think you can see from the discussions that others are not considering this a ‘straw man.’ It has engendered quite a bit of discussion!

The soundness of arguments is determined by their conclusions following from the premises, not by the amount of discussion they stimulate.

You are considering faith a work. It is not – Paul makes that very clear. So for the Calvinist to claim that faith before regeneration is a work or an ‘act’ that pleases God is wrong.

Helen, you don't deflect the charge of straw man argumentation by repeating the same straw man.

Where in my response to you did I claim belief was a work? I said that exercising belief pleases God, and that Romans 8:8 says pleasing God is an impossiblity in the flesh; therefore God-pleasing belief has to be the result of a change in the natural man.

Please note that in your Acts passage, Lydia was already a worshipper of God. She was already responding to the truth that she knew.

Scripture says "[t]he Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul" (Acts 16:14).

Helen says Lydia was responding to the truth she already knew.

O, whom to believe? Whom to believe?

But her response to the truth and the resultant worship of God had come first. You shouldn’t have ignored that.

How can I ignore what is not there? Your interpretation of the story of Lydia is based on your own presuppositions and not the text.

Your use of Lazarus as an example is a faulty one. . . . None of these things have to do with spiritual regeneration, however. They instead show the power of God over death to all who pay attention.

What is Jesus saying? The resuscitation of Lazarus wasn't just proof that he had the power over life or death. He gives it a specific, spiritual application. Just as he has the power to raise Lazarus from physical death, he has the power to raise Martha or anybody else from spiritual death.

Does obedience require regeneration? No, it doesn’t. If it did, then all the unregenerate would at all times be breaking all Ten Commandments.

Non sequitur. Yes, the unregenerate sometimes pursue righteousness through obedience to God's law. But the issue is not whether the natural man sometimes does what is morally right; the issue is whether by so doing the natural man pleases God. Again I cite Romans 8:8, which so far you have not even tried to interact with.

That is something we do not see. Rather, with the Orthodox Jews as an excellent example, we see very law-abiding people who are not regenerate

But by obeying the Law, those Orthodox Jews in fact are not obeying God; on the contrary they are disobeying him by attempting righteousness outside of faith in Christ:

Sorry, Helen, you haven't even come close to proving that belief is irrelevant if salvation is foreordained.

 

Yelsew said:

Strongly recommend that you believe the word of God, but you might do well to consider what I said, as it might just shed a different, more positive light than you are used to, upon the word of God.

I find the idea that God is in control, mighty to save, and accomplishing what he sets out to do, to be about the most positive thing about the Word of God that there is.

I will take the God who actually saves over a God who merely makes man savable, even though man by his nature is hates God and is disinclined to seek salvation (Rom. 3:11). A God that merely makes man savable winds up with billions of savable souls in hell.

 

Helen

I'm sorry it took so long for me to reply, but here goes...

No, I don’t believe regeneration is salvation, however, we are born again spiritually when we are regenerated. If you truly understand Calvinism, you already know this. It’s: regeneration….faith….salvation. Pretty much happens at the same time according to our time standards.

Yep, the Spirit first regenerates us and then we are able to believe the truth. That is the way He predestined salvation to happen.

How much clearer can God be that unbeliever's go to hell completely of their own doing...they caused it not God. Just because God in His mercy chose to save some doesn’t change the fact that everyone deserves punishment. God didn't cause them to go there just because He didn't choose them anymore than the governor caused all murderers to go to the death chamber just because he pardoned one. God knows what he's doing - why in the world would I question Him?

I love to sit on the deck in the morning and look at nature – especially at the lake – watch the sun as it comes up – talk about belief in the truth – what a witness!!! Many times I wonder how can some people say there is no God.

How true!!!

Oops can’t understand that verse fully…it’s out of context….back to 13…we can’t choose Him until we have the setting apart of the Spirit. See, you just can’t get away from that regeneration first. We are not able to understand the Gospel until He enables us.

Could you tell me where does it say those who believe will be drawn to Christ? “Please do so according to Scripture in context. Thanks.”

The next verse :45 says and they (those that He draws) shall be taught of God and then they shall come to Christ. Don’t you wish we could learn everything that quickly. Of course, I guess you may not think it is quickly – another subject, though.

Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, will come to him.

I do understand your insistence even though the evidence is right in front of you. I refused to believe it, too. But, once I left what I was taught behind and read the Word for what it says, I was amazed I hadn’t seen it before. It’s hard to admit you’ve mean wrong for so many years. Are there areas that are still not perfectly clear? Sure there are but now I can approach them without being afraid of “catching something”.

Oh but He did say see.

John 3:3

NASB Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
KJV - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
NIV - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

No misquotes here. I’m sure you meant John 3:5 - you just interchanged the words.

Helen, I have great respect for much of your work. I just don't understand why you don't see what so many have explained on the board. LOL You're probably saying the same of us.

In His Grace
KayDee

 

Good job Helen,as good as i've seen.I have spent many years in the past doing,in a small way, what your doing.I just look in once and a while and i see the debate is still fierce!!!!!!! what a post

 

Helen and Yelsew... I have a serious problem.... too many forums and too little time!!

One thing that I need to clear up, while I am trying to decide if responding point by point is being a good steward of my time, 1) because as far as you, Helen, go, I was trying to clarify what it is that Calvinists believe, not to defend those beliefs, which are 2 very different things. And secondly, and this is to both you and Yelsew, it is clear that both of you are as firm in your belief as I am in mine, and I have to wonder what would be accomplished by spending the time to critically analyze one another. Truly, as iron sharpens iron, but there comes a point when each is as sharp as they are going to be, and the only thing that results from the clash are a bunch of sparks, igniting unwholesome feelings and attitudes in one another. I will pray about this, and I am open to any thoughts either of you may have on these points.

....but I do want to say this:

By saying "a Calvinist (a Christian)" I was not saying that to be a Calvinist is the only way to be a Christian, or that only Calvinists are Christians. Both of you misunderstood me on that point, and I apologize for my part in not communicating as clearly as I could have. But if I wanted to say such a thing, it would have been explicit, and I hope we can agree that the statement: "only Calvinists are Christians" is fairly simple to formulate and state. Rather, by saying what I said, I was trying to distance myself from the idea that Calvin is the first to formulate many of his ideas, and that really, IMHO, saying I am a Calvinist is simply saying I am a Christian, and a Christian who is most faithful to the overall teaching of Scripture, especially concerning soteriology. That is, I am saying with Spurgeon, Calvinism is just a nickname for biblical Christianity.

Secondly, and this is to Helen in particular, if you want to complain about me for being rude to Yelsew, you need to know that I will have a very difficult time seriously considering such points if you cannot also say that Yelsew was being rude by calling my comment "innane". I do not take that word to especially be a compliment.

Blessings

 

Helen

Just a quick reply to yours.

oops – you’re right – I inserted that in the wrong place. I meant you have to be sanctified or set apart before you can believe – according to 2 Thes 2:13 – that is if you believe the order it is stated in means anything – if you don’t believe it does, there are other places that say He must do a work in us before we can believe but those have been mentioned many times before.

BTW, I in no way added to your statement without taking ownership of it.

Where did I say that? I said: “Regeneration comes before salvation - I know most of you have heard this before (from Pastor Larry, anyway). God had to give us a new heart (of flesh) before we were able to believe...had to get rid of that ol' stone one that couldn't do anything good in the Lord's eyes.” Then I gave 2 Thess as a Scripture ref showing the order – sanctification by the Spirit coming first before having faith – I never said this verse says anything about certain people being chosen for salvation.

I want to take some time to review what you have said about being drawn after we believe. You took the time to write it out, it’s only fair I make sure I understand what you are saying. I have never heard anyone (no matter what their theology was) say this. This was the reason I reminded you to answer my post – I wanted you to explain that statement.

Then why did you say I misquoted the verse? I quoted it word for word. Instead why didn’t you explain about parallel verses - not making statements that weren’t true? It feels like you set me up – not a fair way to play.

Anyway, thank you for replying.
KD