Calvinism and Marriage

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Jordan Kurecki, Dec 11, 2013.

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  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    I think Calvinism's doctrine of predestination and total depravity really ruins the picture of marriage, What kind of woman wants to marry a man that she has no free will in doing so? How is that love? It's plain manipulation by the stronger party. Calvinism's God is a cold heartless God who holds souls accountable for a decision they are unable to make. That's like me telling someone who has no hands to throw me a football with their left hand or else i'm going to beat them.. Not to mention Calvinism disregards the fact that God is not a respecter of persons and that God so loved the world.

    Just saying.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    more uninformed, kneejerk, bogeyman cockadoodledoo gobbledygook !!!
    lol.
    :laugh::laugh:
     
  3. convicted1

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    Not being a Calvinist, but rather, Calvinistic, you have the wrong portrait in your wallet. If you're married, what attracted you to her, knowing she was the one? My wife, within one month, I knew she was the one for me. Now, don't give me this "well she was good to me", etc. I had several girlfriends that were really good to me, but for some reason or other, it never worked out. If you don't love someone, no amount of good works by her will make you love her.

    Now, in regards to predestination/TD, we, in our fallen state had no desire to want to serve our Master, our Creator. No amount of preaching, no amount of witnessing, no amount of loving us by christians could ever overcome that. But, when God did His work in drawing us to Himself, changed that for us, and set up a desire for us to want Him.

    Look at Hosea and Gomer. Gomer was a harlot, much like we, the sheep were. We were sheep having gone astray, a bride being with another lover, yet we belonged to Christ, because God had chosen us from before the foundation of the world. She was married to Hosea, but wanted other men. In due time, when she was without strength, Hosea bought her back for, in essence, 30 pieces of silver. He gave 15 pieces of silver and 1.5 homers of barley. One homer was worth 10 pieces of silver, so 1.5 homers of barley was equal to 15 pieces of silver. When Hosea bought her back, and brought her to himself, she then called him "Ishi", or "my husband".

    We, the elect sheep having gone astray, were the bride of Christ. We were the harlotess Gomer. When God, in His own time, did a work in us only He could do, brought us back to our Husband, Christ, who Hosea represented. We willingly became His bride, because we loved Him, knowing what He did for us. He changed our "want to"......We willingly call Jesus "Ishi"..........
     
    #3 convicted1, Dec 11, 2013
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  4. Jordan Kurecki

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    Willingly... My point is there is a still a choice involved here. Gomer did not have to go back to Hosea. she choose to.
     
  5. Winman

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    Well, there you go, one Calvinist pretty much calls you an idiot, the other tells you that your wife was a harlot. It doesn't get any better than that.
     
  6. convicted1

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    We were a harlot, living with someone who wasn't our husband. Whether anyone believes this or not, Satan was our spiritual lover, and lived for, and with him, so to speak. We, all the saved, are the bride of the Lamb, correct? We were His bride, His chosen, Brother Winman. Hosea and Gomer was a true picture of the Lamb and His bride, is it not? If yes, Gomer was a harlot, and we played that role to the hilt, Brother......
     
  7. convicted1

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    Exactly. In a marriage, there has to be two "yesses" unless there's a shotgun involved....:laugh: :D

    In our fallen state, we had no desire to be married to the Lamb. God regenerated us, and that caused us to change our "no" to "yes"......
     
  8. Winman

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    What are you talking about? According to Original Sin you were born in sin, you were born married to Satan. According to Original Sin you were never married to God.

    If anything, you are being unfaithful to your real husband to trust Christ if Original Sin is true.
     
  9. convicted1

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    No Brother Wes. Adam was the representative for the whole human race. The whole human race would still be in accord with God if Adam hadn't sinned and fell in the Garden. So when he fell, the whole race was felled, too(Adam broke that accord and caused us, via sin, to be in discord with God). God, in His mercy, grace, love, chose a people from before the foundation of the world to redeem via the Lamb(these people constitue the bride of the Lamb, that was redeemed, was made white in His blood). He gave these chosen to the Lamb, who took their sins and bore them on the cross, to pay their sin debt in full. These who Christ redeemed, were the sheep having gone astray, the bride of the Lamb that had another lover, etc.
     
  10. Winman

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    First, there is not one word to support that Adam was our Federal Head, this theory was not even known until around the 16th century. Not only, but many Calvinists themselves reject this theory

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/clas...er-iii-sin-or-mans-state-of-apostasy.html?p=3

    Now, as much as I dislike Obama, he is my President. When you participate in an election, you agree to submit to the winner of that election.

    But I never agreed to let Adam be my representative, and neither did you.

    Willis, there are NUMEROUS theories of Original Sin, and they all disagree with each other. It is not a Bible doctrine but purely the invention of men.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    If I'm the first Calvinist you were referring to, even if I am not a Calvinist, well, I guess I'll say the same thing to your 'theories'. all bogeyman gobbledygook cockadoodle doo. :laugh:

    and, oh, by the way, that's nothing personal.
    remember I was addressing theories. or if you want, I'll let you call it....doctrines.
     
  12. Jordan Kurecki

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    So God manipulated me into saying yes against my own will? and that's suppose to be love and picture of marriage? So did you all manipulate your wives into marrying you?

    Saying yes is what causes regeneration, not the other way around.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    I understand your reasoning because at one time that was my very own position and I used the very same arguments. What I discovered was that my arguments were not based upon correct information and therefore my conclusions were no better than the foundation of my arguments.

    Let me give you what I believe is the correct foundation. Unconditional election to salvation presumes the fall has already occurred or else no election to salvation is necessary. The elect are called "vessels of MERCY' and "mercy" presupposes just condemnation worth of punishment.

    Hence, on the basis of justice God is no respect of persons because all equally and justly deserve condemnation. Hence, God in perfect justice could have condemned the whole human race along with fallen angels to eternal condemnation and his justifice would glorify Him and this punishment. In contrast "mercy" cannot be demanded or it ceases to be mercy. In addition, mercy to some and not to others cannot be objected to on the basis of justice or it ceases to be mercy.

    Furthermore, the whole of human nature existed and acted in one person - Adam , and therefore the human will expressed in Adam was the human will of the entire human race and that is why the consequence of that willful action (death) is individualized when the human nature is reproduced by generation because the individualized portion of that human nature acted freely and willfuly when it subsisted in one entity - Adam. Therefore, all have sinned when mankind in the person of Adam sinned and all are therefore guilty and responsible for their loss of spiritual ability to see or please God (Rom. 8:7-8).

    Finally, fallen angels committed the very same act that fallen men commited - willful sin and are provided with very same just consequence - gehenna or eternal death as angels, yet God provided no salvation for fallen angels. He could provide salvation for them if He so chose but he did not choose to save any of the fallen angels. So in your own words, what kind of God would provide salvation for some sinners (men) and not for other sinners (fallen angels). Whatever, problem you have with God not electing some fallen mankind to salvation will be the same problem in not electing any fallen angels to salvation? Was God able to provide some kind of salvation for fallen angel's? Of course He is able. Did he choose not to do so? Obviously, What kind of God would elect to choose some fallen creatures to salvation while not choosing to save other fallen creatures to salvation? You see, you have the same set of problems.

    Your kind of thinking was presupposed by the apostle Paul and his response is as follows:


    Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


    The real problem is why would God choose to save any of His enemies when they all willfully rejected him and none of them will seek after him (Rom. 3:9-18)? Who can give a logical explanation why God would choose to same some sinful creatures (elect men) while choosing not to save other sinful creatures (non-elect men and fallen angels).

    He is glorified by justly punishing some fallen creatures (fallen angels and non-elect fallen men) and He is glorified by His mercy in saving other fallen creatures without violating any justice because Christ paid the penalty in full for all He chooses to save.
     
  14. Winman

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    Calvinism is VERY clever. They will tell you that in your natural state you are absolutely unwilling to even desire being saved. You hate God and everything about him. Nothing can change this, this is your nature. If you hear the gospel you will immediately reject it, you can do nothing else.

    So God regenerates you, but NOT against your will, because you immediately become willing to desire Christ, to repent, to believe...

    Kind of like a fella dropping a pill in a young ladies drink to change her attitude toward him.

    [​IMG]

    Nothing wrong with that is there?
     
  15. convicted1

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    Way back in the Garden, man, namely Adam, had a harmonious relationship with God. Then the serpant beguiled Eve, and then Adam ate of that fruit Eve handed him, and there's be a discord, a disconnect, betwixt man and God, via sin, ever since then. Man, since this time, was born in a fallen condition, having no desire to be in that harmonious state that Adam and God had pre-fall. Yet, man was made for that very reason, and Adam willinnly chose to break that harmony and we reaped the benefits of it. Jesus Christ came to repair that discord by building a bridge and paving it with His blood, that whosoever would believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. In our fallen state, we had no desire to come to Him, to be in harmony, in an accord with Him. Yet, He drew us to Him, and in this drawing, He changes our "want to".............
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    No, God left in tact the will of your sinful nature which abides in you and is described as the "fleshly" nature or "the law of sin" which operates according to the principle spelled out in Romans 7:18-20 and Romans 8:7 or as previously spelled out in Romans 3:10-18.

    However, in addition to the fallen nature and its inclination God graciously provided you an additional new nature "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) that delights in the Law of God (Rom. 7:22) because this new heart by nature loves what God loves and hates what God hates (2 Cor. 3:3).

    In Romans 6 Paul expressly states that you, the child of God, can choose to yeild to the fallen nature or choose to yeild to the new life given you and expressed symbolically in the act of water baptism (Rom. 6:5-6). You can choose to sin and you can choose to yeild to the HOly Spirit to put to death, mortify the deeds of the law of sin (Rom. 8:12-13).

    Do you know of any human being that God has given this new nature who complains about it or wants to go back? No! the only ones who want to go back are FALSE PROFESSORS and that desire of rejection is evidnece of their false profession - 1 Jn. 2:19.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Dec 11, 2013
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  17. Iconoclast

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    Winman,

    So now in your hatred for the biblical truth you blaspheme God by making an ungodly post comparing the drawing of the Holy Spirit....to a date rape drug???? repent of this wickedness.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    You and I were free to marry as we 'willed and desired", its just that as Christians, we would also be persuaded thatthe lord was involved in making sure that we had met and ended up marrying a helpmate from him, one to walk with us in the journey ahead!

    being a calvinistic does NOT mean that we do nothing, or that we have NO choices and decisions to make, its just that we can have confidence in the truth that the Lord is sovereign to make sure all things work out according to His plans and purposes for those of us in christ!
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Jordan Kurecki;

    So your testimonyis that you would not worship the God of calvinism???

    You believe God is unrighteous...and not merciful?

    You answer this question with a ......YES....:(:(
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


    You might be further ahead not"just saying"

    here is the calvinist view of Christ and the Church;

    38 But thou shalt go unto my father's house, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son.

    39 And I said unto my master, Peradventure the woman will not follow me.

    40 And he said unto me, The Lord, before whom I walk, will send his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house:

    41 Then shalt thou be clear from this my oath, when thou comest to my kindred; and if they give not thee one, thou shalt be clear from my oath.

    42 And I came this day unto the well, and said, O Lord God of my master Abraham, if now thou do prosper my way which I go:

    43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

    44 And she say to me, Both drink thou, and I will also draw for thy camels: let the same be the woman whom the Lord hath appointed out for my master's son.

    45 And before I had done speaking in mine heart, behold, Rebekah came forth with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down unto the well, and drew water: and I said unto her, Let me drink, I pray thee.

    46 And she made haste, and let down her pitcher from her shoulder, and said, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: so I drank, and she made the camels drink also.

    47 And I asked her, and said, Whose daughter art thou? And she said, the daughter of Bethuel, Nahor's son, whom Milcah bare unto him: and I put the earring upon her face, and the bracelets upon her hands.

    48 And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the Lord, and blessed the Lord God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son.

    49 And now if ye will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me: and if not, tell me; that I may turn to the right hand, or to the left.

    50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the Lord: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good.

    51 Behold, Rebekah is before thee, take her, and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the Lord hath spoken.

    52 And it came to pass, that, when Abraham's servant heard their words, he worshipped the Lord, bowing himself to the earth.

    53 And the servant brought forth jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment, and gave them to Rebekah: he gave also to her brother and to her mother precious things.

    54 And they did eat and drink, he and the men that were with him, and tarried all night; and they rose up in the morning, and he said, Send me away unto my master.

    55 And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go.

    56 And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the Lord hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master.

    57 And they said, We will call the damsel, and enquire at her mouth.

    58 And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Dec 11, 2013
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  20. Yeshua1

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    our brother seems to feel as many do here, that IF God was really sovereign in sense calvinists hold Him as being, that somehw makes Him unfair, and that we are all robots from birth just marching to heaven/hell regardless!
     
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