Calvinism and the Truth

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    I find that when it comes to "rightly dividing the Word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15), the majority of Calvinists do not apply this when it comes to certain texts, especially when it is directly against what they hold to. Then, instead of using honesty on their interpretation, they use cunning, and are not better than the Jehovah's Witnesses in their interpreatation of certain texts.

    This is NOT bashing Calvinists, but showing that their handle of the Word of God, at times, is not because of what they want to show is the absolute Truth

    Let me show by another examnple from Scripture, 1 Timothy 4:10

    "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe"

    The Greek word "soter" is here, and in all the English versions as far as I am aware, rendered as "Saviour", and no doubt meant in the normal use of the word. Present this text to a Calvinist, and what do you get? Another twisting of Scripture. Ah, they say, it does not mean here "Saviour", as in "from sins"; but, must be seen as "Preserver", in that God sends the rain and sun on all mankind. Do you get this response? Reading Henry, Gill and Calvin, I got this. Now, if this is not a distrotion of the Truth, then I don't know what is. I have checked all the uses of "soter" in the New Testament, 24 times, and in EACH of these uses, it is rendered by our English "Saviour". Why, then, does it mean "preserver" here? There is a Greek word for "preserver", "tereo", which Paul uses in 1 Thess. 5:23; so why did he not use it here? Why does its meaning change here? What sense, if any, would it make for Paul to make such a statement? Does the interpreatation given by the Calvinists actually make any sense? "God", they say, blesses the unsaved by giving them "common grace", such as health, rain and sunshine. But, then Paul says, "especially of those who that believe". What, do the believers get better health, more rain and sunshine? I have never heared of such utter nonsense. Why would have to use the superlative, "malista" "most of all, above all", when applied to believers, since the too equally share in this "common grace"? Makes any sense to anyone?

    Now, suppose the Calvinist were to accept what the Holy Spirit actually meant here, what would this do to their theology? They would seriously have to reconsider their doctrine of Limited Atonament. Instead of accepting this text at face value, as God intends, they are sought to apply their own spin on its meaning here. This is EXACTLY what they do to "kosmos" in John 3:15-17, and 1 John 2:2. Again, in 2 Peter 2:1, they cannot accept what the bible clearly says about Jesus actually "bought" the heretics, false prophets, false teachings; they again provide some more nonsense to its meaning. Talk about distorting the Word of God, its being done by those who are supposed to be Evangelical. Forget the cults.
     
  2. Monergist

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    Do you believe that all men are saved?

    Who are those who are saved? The answer is in the verse you quote--"...especially of those who believe."

    And who are those who believe? Those who are appointed to eternal life. The reasoning (or lack of it) in your argument breaks down at this point. No comparisons to heretics, cultists, etc. will change that.
     
  3. icthus

    icthus
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    You show by your answer you lack of understanding. If you read the Bible, I believe what it teaches. One think it clearly says is who will be saved. Listen to Jesus:

    "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18)

    People are damned because of their unbelief, NOT because Jesus did not die for them. Instead of your answer, how come you did not deal with what I said on 1 Timothy 4:10? You say "And who are those who believe? Those who are appointed to eternal life". Is this based on Acts 13:48? If you were to check the Hreek here, you will see, that they were "enrolled" to "eternal life", because they believed the Gospel. Just like in verse 46 the Jews "considered themselves unworthy of eternal life". Can you see, God did not so consider them, they did so themselves.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    WE had a discussion a while back about 1 Tim 4:10. Did you forget already?

    You, who likes to appeal to lexicons, should have looked this one up. BAGD says "savior, deliverer, perserver." So there is lexical support for such an understanding. Is there theological support.

    LEt's look again at the actual text.

    1. We see that he does something for believers that he does not do for "the world." This is clear from "especially."

    2. Does God give spiritual salvation to "the world" meaning all men without exception. The answer is clearly no. God is not the Savior of men who die in unbelief and go to hell. So if your understanding is right, that spiritual salvation is in view, then God lied. I don't think he did, and I don't think you think he did. I think you simply haven't thought very carefully about this.

    This verse teaches that God saves the sinner from the immediate consequences of his sin (immediate death). He saves the believer in a different way, by saving him not only from immediate consequences, but also eternal consequences. This is the "temporal-eternal" view. It is most likely the correct one.
     
  5. icthus

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    Larry, you know what the problem with Calvinism really is? The difficulty in understanding what Scriptute teaches, withot the need to superimpose your own ideas.

    What I see in 1 Timothy 4:10 is clearly this.

    "God is the Saviour" of "all men" "potentially", in that He has "made provision" fo the sins of "all of mankind"; by "actually", for those who "believe", in that they are "saved"
     
  6. 4His_glory

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    icthus,

    Where in John 3:18 do you see people condemned for unbelief? Notice it does say that he who believes not is already condemned. That means before they reject Christ they are condemned. Do you believe then that if a person does not reject Christ, that they are not condemned? What about those who will never hear of Christ? Are they not condemned? If they never hear of Him, they can not reject Him now can they?

    There is more than unbelief that condemns a person to hell.
     
  7. 4His_glory

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    I would say comparing some one to JWs is a bash. How would you like to be compared to a cult?

    If as you say Calvinists do not rightly divide the truth then why are the majority of conservative Bible scholars throughout history Calvinists?
     
  8. icthus

    icthus
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    I would say comparing some one to JWs is a bash. How would you like to be compared to a cult?

    If as you say Calvinists do not rightly divide the truth then why are the majority of conservative Bible scholars throughout history
    Calvinists?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am comparing the way "interpreattion" of texts is done
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    That is screwed up logic.

    If one must believe in order to be saved, then any out of all who actually does believe likewise is saved.

    You are trying to say that only those who are "appointed to eternal life" become believers, you'd simply be wrong! You have no scriptural support for that.

    Also, Why would the Christ commission his disciples to go make disciples of all nations? Disciples is defined as "Adherants to a teaching". So, anyone who accepts a teaching becomes an adherant. Therefore, anyone can believe and thus be saved! No one has to have an appointment to be saved! It can happen at any time and that would drive the appointment clerk crazy.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    You are misreading the scripture! It says that those who hear but do not believe condemn themselves through their unbelief.

    We have many examples of groups that have heard a leader and believed and followed that leader...to their deaths. Jim Jones, David Koresch, to name two such frauds. Their followers believed what they were saying.

    Besides in John 3:18, God the Son is talking future speak. Those who believe will not face judgment, those who do not believe judge themselves before the judgement.

    The key here is the HEARING. Believe or not believe.
     
  11. pastorjeff

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    That is screwed up logic.

    If one must believe in order to be saved, then any out of all who actually does believe likewise is saved.

    You are trying to say that only those who are "appointed to eternal life" become believers, you'd simply be wrong! You have no scriptural support for that.
    [/QB][/QUOTE]


    The funny thing about this is that there is no proof against only those appointed to eternal life becoming believers.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    There is no evidence indicating only those appointed do believe. So what's the point of the doctrine?

    There are also warnings against believers falling away else they lose their salvation by having their names blotted from the book of life! Hense, it is possible for even the elect to lose their salvation! Try revelation 3, the letter to the church at Sardis.
     
  13. whetstone

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    this is the best the arminian side has? why do i keep coming back to bb?
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Calvinism doesn't really have a problem other than people like you who make uninformed and untrue statements about it. I have yet to superimpose one of my ideas on Scripture.

    Really? And where do you see this? I see nothing about potentiality. You are so fond of verb tenses. Surely you know that this is an indicative clause ... He is the Savior, not He can be, or he potentially is. But he actually is. Secondly, the verse says nothign about provision. You are superimposing your own ideas.

    Actually, "actually" is not in the text. And the word in question, "malista" means that all men enjoy to some degree what the believers enjoy to a full degree. Again, pull out your lexical works and study this word, and you will prove yourself wrong.
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Why are you a Calvinist if your belief system is so difficult that even the simple cannot understand it?

    Scriptures tell us is was made simple to confound the was....and it works! You don't have a clue!
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Neither does this passage support Calvinism, per se. It is general instruction from Paul to Timothy, that Salvation is for EVERYONE, but especially those who believe. It should be obvious from the difficulty we all have putting the whole picture together, having all the text, that Paul who did not have all the text, had an even greater challenge getting it together for Timothy.

    For the sake of Paul's consistancy, we must understand that only those who have faith in God are going to be saved, because unbelievers condemn themselves by their own unbelief (according to God the son). Therefore when Paul says that Salvation is for every one as he does here in 1 Timothy 4 the meaning is that POTENTIALLY EVERYONE can be saved! No limitation such as "the elect", but in truth EVERYONE, not excluding ANYONE!

    If that is the way you understand Paul, then we are in agreement! If that is not how you understand Paul then you can take it up with him!
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    This topic is debate relates with 'Limited Election'.

    Calvinists saying of John 3:16, that 'world' is speak of believers(elect) only, not sinners. Calvinists' method of intepreting John 3:16 that they saying the grammar follow saying God so love the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, whosoever believeth upon him, shall not go perish, but have everlasting life. They saying, 'world' is speak of 'whosoever believeth in Christ' is believers as elect, not sinners.

    John 3:16 seems prove speak of Limited Election.

    What about Romans 5:8? It says: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Does this verse telling us, that Christ died for the elect only, or died for all sinners? Which one?

    What about 1 John 2:2? I am aware that, of course many Calvinists know 1 John 2:2 well. The way both Calvinists and Arminianists interpreting this verse differently.

    I did read John Gill's comment on 1 John 2:2. I disagree with his interpreting of 1 John 2:2. John Gill, himself was a Calvinist.

    Gill says of 1 John 2:2 - "not for ours only" - word, 'ours' is speak of Jews. Jews? Apostle John does not saying it. Remember Apostle John was wrote three epistles to whom? Believers, both Jew and Gentile well. Obivously, the first epistle of John was written apply to us as believers.

    I have no difficult with 1 John 2:2. I can read and understand clear what this verse is talking about.

    1 John 2:2 tells us, Christ is the sacrifice for our sins: and NOT NOT for ours only(clearly it opposite of 'Limited Election or Atonement')but also for the sins (of whom???) the WHOLE WORLD." Very simply and plain.

    1 John 2:2 tells us, that Christ died for the SIN OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Obivously, Christ died for all sinners either Jew or Gentile.

    Read 1 John 2:2 is not difficult for you to understand. Clear, this verse is speak of opposite on 'Limited Election or Atonement'.

    John 3:16 and Romans 5:8 both show very clear that God shew the world, that He sent His only begotten Son to died on the cross for the sinners. That mean God shows all people of the world that Christ died on the cross by his love toward us while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

    What is the purpose of Gospel? What is the purpose of Calvary for?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. webdog

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    Is Scripture REALLY supposed to be a HUGE riddle? When the average Joe reads John 3:16, John 14:6, John 3:3, etc. how is he supposed to know what "all" means all and what "whoever" means whoever? Did God really intend for His Word to be that hard to understand? Why did Jesus speak in parables? TO MAKE HIS MESSAGES EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.

    I read Matthew 25:41 and when Jesus says that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, that's who I believe hell was prepared for, not man. We were prepared for earth, until man screwed that up with his own free will.

    I read 2 Peter 3:9 and Peter says that the Lord wants no one to perish, but everyone to come to repentance, I believe the Word of God, not the flawed teaching of man. Was God trying to throw us a curve, or telling us the truth? I believe the latter.

    I don't agree with all arminian thinking, either. I believe when Jesus says "eternal life" and "everlasting life", that is exactly what He means: life everlasting, life eternal. If Jesus said He would give us a car that will drive eternally, would we doubt Him, or believe the car will break down at some point? Why did God not use "conditional life"? Temporary life? Because it is not, it is ETERNAL and nothing can pluck us from God's hand, not even ourselves!
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

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    Often Calvinists and baptists(neither calvinist or arminianist) emphasis on John 10:28-29 as proof of security salvation or so called, 'Perservance of the Saints'. That no one can pluck us out of His hand is speak of eternal life, not conditional or temporary. But they not stress or emphasis on John 10:27 says, if any person hear his voice(God's Word), and follow Christ. John 10:27-29 promise us, IF any person hear God's Word(gospel), and to FOLLOW Christ shall not pluck person out of Christ's hand, have eternal life. OR... what IF a perosn stopped follow Christ, Christ shall loose person out of his hand, if a person wants go in own way. John 10:27 is very obivous speak of condition.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. webdog

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    &lt;&lt;&lt;what IF a perosn stopped follow Christ, Christ shall loose person out of his hand, if a person wants go in own way. John 10:27 is very obivous speak of condition.&gt;&gt;&gt;

    Where is the condition in this set of verses? You are correct, if anyone hears, believes, and follows Christ, he will have eternal life. If you follow Christ after hearing the gospel and Give your life to Him, you will have ETERNAL life. If you hear only, and do not follow Christ you will not have eternal life.
     

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