Calvinism: Angels as Well?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro. Williams, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
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    Alright, this is just one of those random questions that comes along...

    Do Calvinist's beleive that Lucifer was created to become Satan?

    IOW, do calvs believe angels (like humans in the sense that calvs believe certain men were created to go to hell) and cherubim (in reference to Lucifer) are created to go to hell and to fall? That there was no will in their actions?

    Note: I am just curious. This is not a thread to ruffle feathers, just to answer a random question.
     
  2. npetreley

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    I could be wrong, but I don't think most Calvinists believe that. I do. However, I don't think it can be proved through scripture. It's just a personal "logical" conclusion.
     
  3. TCGreek

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    Until your questions are framed properly regarding Calvinists, I see no reason to say more. Maybe you are not aware of the nuances of Calvinists.
     
  4. Bro. Williams

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    Quite frankly, I do not care for you to answer.

    If I misrepresented someone on purpose, that would be one thing. I have, however, not done so in light of the calvs that I am in contact with. Go take your ball and play on another thread if you so desire.
     
  5. TCGreek

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    1. No need to get angry.

    2. If you've been in contact with other Calvinists, then you need to ask them why they believe what they believe. And while you're at it, ask them if all Calvinists believe the same thing.

    3. Besides, nothing in your inquiry says that it does not stand to be corrected.

    There's no need to get angry. Grace and peace, my brother.
     
    #5 TCGreek, Aug 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2007
  6. npetreley

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    Sorry for responding, since I don't think I represent Calvinists on this issue. I just wanted to weigh in because I know my view is somewhat unusual.
     
  7. Bro. Williams

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    I simply got irritated over the fact that I was asking a simple question. My position on what calvs stand for is biased I am sure, due to a limited knowledge and an even more limited ability of true representation where I am located.

    Honestly, most of the calvs I know believe what they believe b/c it is what the college they attended beleived, or because it is what their pastor believes. They are milk heads with only the repeat button on. That is one reason I asked on this board, I was thinking there would be some here who were not as milky.
     
  8. Bro. Williams

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    Feel free to post. I am trying to get some understanding here.
     
  9. russell55

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    I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I'm going to ask what I think you might be asking in my own wording and then answer it:

    Did God plan for Lucifer to fall? Yes.

    Calvinists believe that God planned for them to fall, but they also believe that they sinned according to their own will. They decided of their own will to rebel against God, and so they did.

    It's the same thing with human beings, BTW. God planned for Adam to fall, but Adam also fell because he willed to sin.
     
  10. J.D.

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    I would say the PLAN was the same for both men and angels.

    According to widely accepted teaching, they were created, not TO fall, but with God KNOWING that they would fall, but yet according to His plan.

    The key to understanding this is NECESSITY. In order for God's redemptive purposes to bear fruit, it was NECESSARY that men and angels would fall into sin.

    Hence, the dichotomy of God's will of desire (sin never exist) vs God's will of necessity (sin must exist).

    Some of us, considered hyper-calvinists, teach that God did in fact create them TO be destroyed, and find the teaching of mulitple wills of God to be contradictory.
     
  11. Analgesic

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    If a sovereign, omniscient and omnipotent God created them as He did, knowing that they would do as they did, then how were they not created to fall? Certainly the fall came about as a result of their will, but it was His decision to create them with such a will as they had, and that decision was made with the full knowledge of the consequences of bestowing such a will and despite His omnipotent capability of bestowing any other will.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    So try using the phrase "some Calvinists" for a change.

    But that is a double bladed sword, brother. The same can be said of the Arminians, the semi-Pelagians, and generally those who graduated from any Bible College of whatever theological stripe.

    I will wait with you.:thumbs:
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    Now, I personally believe that this is something none can answer here, whether he be Calvinist, Arminian, semi-Pelagian, Pelagian, or whatever kind of milkhead.

    For the simple reason that the Bible does not tell us much about anything before creation, other than "in the beginning, God...."

    I am afraid an attempt to answer this would at best sound flimsy, and at worst, border on the incoherent, since this would be the spirit world we would venture to examine.
     
  14. Bro. Williams

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    No malice meant, but I can't please everyone with a general post. I am sure most know the feeling. I think from the OP one can get a general idea of what I am getting at without all the gnat straining.
     
  15. Bro. Williams

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    Here is a more simple OP:

    Do/did angels and cherubim have free will?

    (Specifically in relation to Lucifer's casting out and the angels that rebelled with him).
     
  16. Bro. Williams

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    I hope it is more simple...
     
  17. russell55

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    Yes, they had free will. They did what they wanted to do.
     
  18. Bro. Williams

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    So do calvs believe angels have free will but men do not?
     
  19. russell55

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    Most Calvinists believe that Adam and Eve had free will because they were created with natures that were unaffected by the fall. They were able to sin and able not to sin.

    Whether the people born after Adam and Eve had free will or not depends on what you mean by "free will." Calvinists believe that after the fall, people were not able not to sin, because they have inherited corrupt natures. So if you define free will as the ability to not sin, then people after the fall don't have free will. If you define free will as the ability to choose and act according to one's desires, then people after the fall have free will.
     
    #19 russell55, Aug 14, 2007
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  20. ReformedBaptist

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    Bro Williams,

    You might have a difficult time getting others to believe you on this small point after you call people milk heads. lol

    I think your answer can be answered without the concern of what one calvinist thinks over or with another. Do they not have creeds? Is this not answered in their own confessions of faith or catechisms? Indeed it is. Now, please take my statement of faith/creed. It is the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. That is the statement of faith at our church.

    Concerning this point it states:

    "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice." 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4

    "These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished." 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18

    You will find these quotes in Chapter 3: Of God's Decree #3 and 4.

    You will also find this statement practically identical to Chapter 3: #3 and 4 of the Westminster Confession of Faith. (Presbyterians)

    Both these confessions represent the belief of the greater part of those who are called Calvinists. And I don't see any need to expound on them as they are pretty clear in answering your question. I could only add, since you asked specifically concerning Lucifer, that he too was an angel and certainly must be included here.
     

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