Calvinism as Agnosticism

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by JohnB, Mar 29, 2005.

  1. JohnB

    JohnB
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    Generally, what I have read about Unconditional Election leads me to think about a connection between Calvinism and agnosticism.

    Why does God choose one man and not another? Answers range from "His inscrutible will" to "His good pleasure" to "who are you to question God?"

    But the bottom line is that, this side of heaven, we have no way of knowing. Hence - agnosticism.

    Can we believe that God gave us 66 books of divine revelation, but no where in there does He explain how or why we are elected or not elected?
    I mean, we think we can figure out if we are elect or not, but we have no way of being certain about it.
     
  2. rc

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    Where is it implied in the Bible that we are to know everybody that is and will be saved?

    Do you know? This premise is silly.

    The Bible everywhere states there are ELECT. Those who believe are and those that don't believe are not... simple.
     
  3. JohnB

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    RC, thanks for the response.

    My premise is not that God gives us a list of the elect/non-elect. I am thinking about this at a personal level, how do I know that I am elect or non-elect.

    I certainly agree with your conclusion which is consistent with 1 John 5:13. And I do believe it's that simple.

    I just have not run across many Calvinists who have such a strong assurance of their election. Such a distinguished scholar as R.C Sproul confessed to struggling greatly with this issue.
    Even John Calvin did not claim assurance of his election but only a hope since he believed that God intentionally deludes many non-elect with a false assurance.
     
  4. El_Guero

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    John

    What a can of worms ...
     
  5. JohnB

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    I know, I'm just being a bomb thrower...

    Just thought it might stimulate some thought.
     
  6. billwald

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    There is no test for salvation except conforming to 2nd John.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Bill Wald;
    There is a test for your calling and election and Salvation; 2nd Peter1:1-10
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. rc

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    The irony is as Jonathan Edwards says paraphrased.. Our quesioning our security in our faith seriously is a sign that we are secure!

    Get it? Worrying about not being saved, helps us to cling all the more to Christ.. (which by God's grace keeps us!)

    Those who say I'm saved! Yet live like Satan are decieved. THose who sin and shake at the thought of hell is a sign your on good ground.

    I love 1 John. After his whole book he uses
    5.18-20 . John uses the word "know" more than any other writer in the Bible. Especially in John 8,9,10 and 1 John ...

    ILL used 2 Peter 1.10 also... AWESOME verse...
    This keeps us in line for sure...
     
  9. El_Guero

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    The irony is that someone that has never chosen Christ as their Lord and Savior could doubt their salvation. What a sad state of affairs ...

    John,

    Like you, I have met so few "predestined" believers that have an assurance that they are saved. That is scary ... thank God that I know in whom I have believed ...
     
  10. Monergist

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    It seems rather arrogant to suggest that we may understand as fully as God understands.

    The alternative is not agnosticism--

    It's humility.
     
  11. rc

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    The irony is that someone that has never chosen Christ as their Lord and Savior could doubt their salvation. What a sad state of affairs

    The futility of that statement is Unnatural men don't ask these questions. They are at war against God. They could care less about "their salvation" since it doesn't exist to them and it is foolishness.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    rc;
    You should know huh! :rolleyes:
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. whetstone

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    Spurgeon dealt with this very issue! [​IMG]

    These quotes compliments of Spurgeon.us.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Your Question only applies if you assume ELECTION!

    The Scriptures tell us that God saves whosoever believes in HIS SON! Believing comes from hearing God's Word, and God's word is written, Spoken, Sung, so it can be heard, and it is visible in the Creation so it can be seen. AND, God implants it in the Hearts of Man!

    NO MAN has an excuse for not having faith in God whether it be God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit.

    Man's Faith in God is the KEY Element in man's Salvation because God does not save those who lack it. Even the mysteriously inconspicuous "elect" can have their names blotted from the book of life for not having faith! And there is no scripture that gives them any leeway!
     
  15. here now

    here now
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    BUT, hearing comes from the word of God.
    So not everyone who hears actually "HEARS". Hearing is not "accepting", hearing is "understanding". You know "understanding", suchas, a "revelation" from God.
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    That's one opinion of "hearing".

    One does not need to understand ALL of God's word to hear and Understand the parts that apply to him/her in the place where they are.

    Said another way, you don't feed meat to infants! They require milk. Adults do not require Milk.

    Every human "hears" enough of God's word to be drawn to the cross, the Holy Spirit makes it so! Every human "hears" enough of the word to have their appetite whetted enough to "cause a decision" one way or another.
     
  17. here now

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    Wes says:
    One does not need to understand ALL of God's word to hear and Understand the parts that apply to him/her in the place where they are.

    I say:
    This is true. BUT, the PART that is yours to "understand" is received(HEARD)(REVEALED) FROM the Holy Spirit.
    *************************************************

    Wes says:
    Said another way, you don't feed meat to infants! They require milk. Adults do not require Milk.

    I say:
    This is refering to "infants and adults" in the born again sense.
    BUT, an ADULT person who has just been born again does require milk, BECAUSE he is considered a babe.
    *************************************************

    Wes says:
    Every human "hears" enough of God's word to be drawn to the cross, the Holy Spirit makes it so! Every human "hears" enough of the word to have their appetite whetted enough to "cause a decision" one way or another.

    I say:
    Hearing comes from the word of God.
    So not everyone who hears actually "HEARS". Hearing is not "accepting", hearing is "understanding". You know "understanding", suchas, a "revelation" from God.

    Sincerely,
    Here Now
     
  18. rc

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    I find through counseling that people that come to me with a "fear" that they are not elect, that they really don't know if they truly have faith in Christ is, most of the time, that they are saved, but are in sin and are not dealing with it. What I mean by that is, they are not "AT WAR" with their sin. In this state, the spirit in convicting them and they are "playing with God" and not taking the next step with battling with their sin. It is a step in maturity.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Again that is a nice opinion but that is all it is. Infants start somewhere and that in not be being born again before they hear the word that brings them to the state of being born again!

    You have your opinion so tightly wrapped around the rear axle that you can't even see the stearing mechanism.

    A revelation is the revealing of that which is UNKNOWN, not that which is not understood.
     
  20. whetstone

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    personal experience- i've haven't yet met a Calvinist that doubted his salvation. He 'had made his calling and election sure' by looking at the cross. I HAVE met quite a few arminians that doubted their salvation because they were looking back at the free-will decision they made for Christ asking themselves 'was I genuine?'

    Is your faith in Christ or in your decision for Christ?
     

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