Calvinism Denies Scripture: "All" = Some

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck
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    "... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile."
    Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858


    SCRIPTURE:

    Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
    Matthew 3:5-6

    CALVINIST:

    Nahh, come on, you don't buy that! All Judaea was baptized by John the Baptist?? No, no come on! You know that's not true. You just know!!

    QUESTION:

    If it's not true, then why does Scripture say so?? Scripture lies?! I guess it's only a "white lie"...
     
  2. Bismarck

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    "... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile."
    Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858

    C. H. Spurgeon is quoting John 12:19, "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, 'Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.'"

    (1) The word "all" (pas, G3956) does not appear in John 12:19. Therefore, John 12:19 cannot be used to determine the meaning of "all" (pas, G3956). Spurgeon's analysis is, therefore, spurious and irrelevant.

    (2) Even allowing for Spurgeon's de facto insertion of "all" (pas, G3956) into John 12:19, even so, did the "[whole] world" go after Jesus? Certainly not — for Ananias, Caiaphas, the Priests, the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the Scribes, and the Romans all joined forces to crucify the Messiah.

    So is Scripture in error? Let us re-read verse:

    The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, 'Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.'
    John 12:19

    Is further comment warranted?

    Spurgeon has impugned the authority of Scripture based upon the obviously false testimony of the Pharisee opponents of the Messiah (!).

    Then Jesus said unto them, 'Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees'... 'How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?' Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
    Matthew 16:6,11-12
     
  3. Rippon

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    It's called hyperbole . The beloved John used it at the end of his Gospel account .

    Jesus also did many other things . If they were all written down , I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written . ( John 21:25 NLTse )

    Mr. Spurgeon summarized my sentiments well in his quote that you graciously provided .
     
  4. npetreley

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    "Oy vey!"

    Nothing to see here folks. Move along.
     
  5. Bismarck

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    "... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile."
    Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858


    C. H. Spurgeon is quoting 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lieth in the power of the wicked one."

    Spurgeon is asking, if John and his Believing readers are "of God", then how can the wicked one dominate the whole world?

    (1) Again, the word "all" (pas, G3956) does not appear in this verse (1 John 5:19). Again, this verse is irrelevant for determining the meaning of the word "all" (pas, G3956).

    (2) This verse (1 John 5:19) does say, "whole world". The actual Greek words behind this translation are Holos (G3650) Kosmos (G2889). So, can it truly be that — as Scripture says here — the "whole world" is dominated by the adversary?

    (A) The Messiah says so, "Now is the judgment of this world (Kosmos, G2889): now shall the prince of this world (Kosmos, G2889) be cast out" (John 12:31).​

    Then how can God-fearing men dwell in this world (Kosmos, G2889??

    (B) The Messiah said, "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world (Kosmos, G2889): if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence' (John 18:36).​

    (3) Note that all :) these Scriptural references are particularly instructive because these verses were all penned by the same author, John. Thus, you can be "doubly sure" that these verses, using the same words, are mutually relevant.
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    point one....

    Read npetreley's post 1st. :)
     
  7. HankD

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    We can know for instance from the tiny piece of the universe that we can see that it is comprised of billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars.

    An inconceivable number for us mortals, but how about God:

    Psalm 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.​

    So for starters try writing all their names in books. ​

    Like I said thats just for starters.
    Each galaxy has it's own story of creation and purpose.
    Same with each star in each galaxy and each planet of each star in each galaxy and each of their moons of those planets in those solar systems, in each of those galaxies etc, etc...​

    Write it all down.​

    And that's just a start of the starters.​

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    I think the Apostle John was right and that his statement was not hyperbole.​

    HankD​
     
    #7 HankD, Sep 18, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2007
  8. Rippon

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    In a quick search John Gill agrees with you . Matthew Henry and the NETnotes believe John 21:25 is hyperbole . Check out other commentators .

    But all of this is a diversion . The word translated "all" in our English Bibles does not mean "each and every" each and every time .
     
  9. HankD

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    Yes Rippon, you are correct and it's up to each of us (where there is controversy or error) to assess the arguments and prayerfully (hopefully) decide for ourselves, after all that is one of the Baptist distinctives - Individual Soul Liberty.

    Here is one place that seems clear to me.

    Acts 17
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

    HankD​
     
  10. Rippon

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    I agree HD .
     
  11. Ivon Denosovich

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    I'm not a Calvinist and I really have no dog in this fight, but that sounds like a very reasonable explanation.
     
  12. Ivon Denosovich

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    "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

    To read "all" literally without a modifier or noun would include everything as sinners including God, Jesus, and inanimate objects such as pizza.

    But being a food lover, I'd defend the righteousness of pizza. :D

    I think Rippon nailed this argument with the hyperbole response.
     
    #12 Ivon Denosovich, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2007
  13. Amy.G

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    It's obvious that "all" means all but God. How can God come short of the glory of God?
     
  14. Ivon Denosovich

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    Amy.G, that was my point. We can't always read all literally.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    Methinks much confusion and debate could be averted if people understood the semantic range of words, learned exegesis, and learned to avoid exegetical fallacies. D.A Carson's book on exegetical fallacies is worth the read.

    At least we are getting a clearer insight into what Bismark thinks and believes.
     
  16. Rippon

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    I had said earlier that Romans 3:23 has to be all of the human race . The "all" there just refers to human beings . It's not an example of hyperbole .
     
  17. Amy.G

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    :laugh: I was agreeing with you.
     
  18. donnA

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    The word 'all' is not always all inclusive, as we might think it is.
    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered
    was the whole world counted and registered?

    John 1: 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe

    Did all beleive?

    2Peter 3:
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Are there people perishing, going to hell, does everyone repent and recieve eternal life?
    All is not always all inclusive.
     
    #18 donnA, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2007
  19. Ivon Denosovich

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    I agree it's not hyperbole. I was just knit-picking to show that if we insist on all literal all the time we miss the point. Regardless, your point makes more sense than mine anyway.
     
  20. Ivon Denosovich

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    <Baptist admitting mistake>

    You're still wrong! You are evil and an infidel and I'm a sanctified believer!

    </Baptist admitting mistake>

    ;)
     

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