Calvinism Denies Scripture: "All" = Some

Yes we do know this. Its callled the way of Cain (jude)
we can talk about if he was chosen or not, one way or another, but that was not the point. The point was to show people can know God, and can even believe in a God, and still not be saved...which was what was said.

 

Jude gave characteristics of the false teachers, with Cain's being but one example used (selfishness, hatred of brother, etc.). The text does not state Cain died a reprobate man.

 

Listen to what you are saying. Being chosen....or Gods election....is based on someone other then God. So.. choosing to repent is one condition that God must see in a person in order to chose them and also this election is based on a person choosing to believe. If a person choose these two things, then God will choose them. Is this really what you are saying? If so..why does God chose?

And i'm sure you mean repent as in turning from the ways of the world and turning to the things of God. And as far as believing, it is my feeling you mean once they repent if they believe not just in a God, but that God is their only hope of salvation and they see their need as a sinner to be saved from their sin, thereby they believe Christ is their salvation, at this point and not before God can then choose them to be saved.

So what is election for? In other words, if election never happens to these people that have chosen to repent, and chosen to believe would they then go to hell?

Lets remove ourself from the subject of salvation and apply this to another subject. Lets say there is a bus setting in from of a school and the driver walks from the bus and places red cards on a table. The driver then says, I amd going to New York City. Anyone that picks up one of these red cards and walks on the bus, I will drive them freely to New York City. If there is 100 students that day, and 20 pick up a card and walk on the bus, who made the choice of what people should go to NYC? Would it be better for the bus driver to then get on the bus and go to each person and say, I chose you to go, I choose you to go…I chose you to go and on. Has not the choice already been made?

Ok..well now I understand why you said that. You feel all of mankind has been choosen. If this is the case then all will be saved. Please read Eph 1.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case.
Deuteronomy 7:7-9 “The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

There are many good verses to prove this, but none are more clear then Malachi 1

Notice in verse 2 God makes a statement…I love you. This he is saying to “his chosen people”. Yet look what His people say back. They ask…when have you ever loved us? Now to prove his love God makes a big point here. Again..this statement is by God to prove He loves “his people”. God says.. “Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau,”

Did you notice how long this hate last? Forever. Did you see that they will build up…and God will throw down. Why was this done? It was to prove God loved His chosen people more then others.

I agree with this...but how can you say this if you believe all are elect?????

Volunteers for salvation? That's a new one. Is election for salvation, or is it for volunteers? This is wishy washy. Who is in control here?

The Jews were Gods Chosen people. I have never met any one to disagree with this. No other nation was chosen.

Notice in Isa 43...God gave...and in this context this means gave over to death Egypt, Ethiopia and Seba....He gave them over as a RANSOM for his people. WHY? Because He loved them.

Ok so what about the ninevehvites? This was Gods election at work. No other nation was shown favor, then God comes to a Jew, one of the elect and says...Go tell these people. Not all nations....just this one that was outside of the Jewish nation. The reason Acts was a shock to the believers, is that new this did not happen to other nations before this time....except for ninevehvites. So why the ninevehvites? They were wicked people. Why did God chose to send someone to them? What good did God see in them? None. Elction is the power of God and for His pleasure. To some he gives mercy and saving grace. To others He leaves in their sin.

What good did God see in Paul? Tis grace my friend that saves.

Now read this close to understand. Gods love would never let this happen.

Cain did not know Abel?


However it seems that pews are often filled with believers who have no Salvation because they have refused the conditions of Salvation. This is why it's so very important to all of us that we accept those conditions and submit to God.

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My point is this...if all people are chosen...then all people are saved if you take this verse. So....what does "called" mean here? Because all that are called...are saved. ALL OF THEM

 

I think I can show this. However i want to ask.....

Do you believe Cain was a believer?

 

I don't lean one way or the other. There is not enough information given about the rest of his days.

 

Eph 1 doesn't say that all the elect will be saved. Eph 1:4 says we are chosen "in Him" the word us in that verse includes us all. There simply is no exclusions.

The election of the Jews and the election of Christ choosing to die for the world are two different things. Though Christ died for the world because He so loved the world just as He loved the descendants of their forefathers. He didn't just love a few but all of the Jews. I don't see anything particular in that at all.

Yes I noticed all that and I also noticed that this election isn't to Salvation but was in fact God setting the Jews apart to be His people through which would come the Messiah. Why would or should we assume that an election to Salvation would be on the same bases. Since Christ died for the whole world. Different covenants are different.

The Jews are still God's elect are they not. If so then explain how they can be saved because of there election, if they refuse to accept Christ as there messiah. Christ said,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This one verse proves that election doesn't mean we will be saved no matter what, because the Jews rejected Christ and there is no other way.

The word volunteers was meant to show that in order for men to receive the kingdom they have to trust as a little child as in.
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
The one thing that stands out in children is there capacity to trust completely. Trust is an act of the will. They are willing.

The Ninevhvites were not elect. as were the Jews. Though you agree that they believed what Jonah told them and believed God. The Ninevehvites were outsiders. This action of there belief in God shows that men are not incapable of believing God or incapable of hearing and understanding. It shows that God can save whom ever He wants to and does. It shows that all things are possible with God. It shows that God can die for the whole world meaning everyone in it. It shows that His dying for the world is the election of everyone in this world for Salvation. It shows that men do have a choice to be willing or not.

God didn't see anything in Paul that made him deserving. But since you mention this. You're right grace does save but only through faith. "No faith No Salvation"
You will notice in act 9 a light shinned around Paul from Heaven. If this happened to you wouldn't you want to know who it was that spoke to you from the light? Paul at this point didn't believe because he had to ask who it was. It just seems reasonable that if this is a picture of Paul's regeneration then He should have known. When Jesus told Paul who He was. Paul was shaken because of His own guilt of persecuting Jesus. Paul is right away convinced of the truth because of His experience and ask Lord what will you have me do. In verse 6 Paul confesses that Jesus is who He said He was and in that moment was saved. This passage shows Paul's fear of what was happening by Paul calling the voice Lord Just in case. It shows Paul's conviction, it shows Paul being convinced of Christ, and shows Paul's confession of Jesus being Lord.
There is no regeneration before faith here what is here is an unusual act of Jesus Himself ministering to Paul

So you say, this isn't what God says, nor is it what His word says.

Your point above in bold.
Scripture never says that all the elect will be saved.
The calling of every believer is the great commission. To spread the gospel. To allow Christ to live through us. To do what ever God ask of us. The call is not election or Paul would have said elected, not called.
MB

 

From a post above..

Lets start from the beginning.

Do you believe all men go to heaven?

Is Gods goal to save all mankind?

 

God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1Tim 2:4).

 

I think there is enough info.

Is God in Heaven?

Will all believers someday see God?

 

Before I reply, let me state what I asked once again.

The meaning of the verse is given in verse 7. Notice the 1st word.."Whereunto". The ESV uses these words.."For this". Meaning "for this reason". What reason? That God desires all men to be saved.

7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Back to verse 4.

thelō found here in verse 4...I like "will" better.
Young puts it this way..

who doth will all men to be save

KJV uses "will" here too

NIV has "wants"

I'm trying to show how much I place on this word. It is a great level of power. The power of God is found here. God desires...God wants...Gods will....

If mans will is bound...and it is...there most be a controlling factor. There is a controlling factor, for we see salvation. Christ prayed..."Thy will be done". This pray was to the Father. Would Christ pray for anything out of line? I say no.

The salvation of 2:4 is not a possible salvation for all without exception, but it is an actual salvation for the chosen ones by God the Father. If the will of God was dependent on the will of man ...no one would be saved, because salvation would be of him that wills and of him that runs, which would contradict Romans 9:16 “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” .

So when this mercy is given, who controls who gets the mercy? Is Gods will played out when He gives mercy? I think so. I think that Gods will comes about and God saves all that He wills to save.

so....what is meant in 2:4?

ALL MEN, Gentiles as well as Jews, are now on an equal footing...for this reason I teach the Gentiles.

 

I commend your use of v.7, though it is not the usual gar or dia touto expressions of Paul, but rather eis ho, "unto which."

 

Why do you post like the Riddler? Just state what it is you want to state. I don't have the time for this ping pong posting. The questions are riduculous.

 

You can see there being chosen to be saved but when Christ said He died for the world it's only a select few.

What good does it do to speculate about the "could haves" When God could have eliminated the possibility of sin before it ever existed? My answer never the less is God's timing. I'm sure He had a reason however my speculation doesn't have much of a chance of being right. Neither does anyone elses. Scripture doesn't say why.

In reality if there was proof of Particular election you would have shown it and you haven't. Even someone with a poor misunderstanding as you say I have can see that you haven't
MB

 

I never said God does not love the world, now did I? John 3:16 is clear on this. I happen to believe all the Bible. Now do you believe the Bible when it says God hates, or will you change the meaning of the word to fit your doctrine?

I see it as it is stated. Just as I love food, I do not love peas, which is a food.

NOTE:>> But you have not answered what was asked. Do you feel in Eph 1 that “US” means all of mankind??

Although I follow and agree with I fail to see your point

When Christ died on the cross He paid a ransom for sin our. What do you feel this word ransom means?. When Christ died on the cross, it was also an atonement for our sins. What does the word atonement mean to you? When Christ died on the Cross, he said it was finished. What does that mean to you?

Please review these veses…

Lev 16
21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Now the New Test.

Heb 2
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Did God choose all the Jews? Yes….but not all nations. Was the atonement for all the chosen people? Yes...but not all the nations. The atonement was for ALL the people of ONE chosen nation, Just as Christ blood was for ALL the elect from ALL the nations of the world, in the Church age. This is election and it is particular

Always though faith. But the point was made in the verse that people ARE elected to salvation.

But the point was that GOD did the electing. He elected the Jews and the Jews only. Then one day he showed Jonah that a few others were elected by send Jonah. This my friend shows election is particular

Please notice again we are created “in Christ” by God. This is Gods work.

Because these were people that died before Jonah went. Real people. And these people God did not lead Jonah to tell about God. Now they had the sky and moon to till them about God. All men have the sky and moon. But all do not have a preacher. Why? How shall they hear without a preacher? This is shows election is particular

I feel I have.

Have you read the love Chapter? This tells us what love is. It also limits love. It also tells us that if its REAL love...it will never end. If God loves the world..and He does, we must know what real love is. The love chapter tells us what love is.

 

In other words, your concept of interpreting scripture that doesn't fit into your philosophy is to make light of it.

 

No, God's goal is to bring glory to himself.

 

Not sure what the no was about, but I agree with the statement.