Calvinism & Evangelism training

"Let's Go Soul-winning" by Dr. Jack Hyles.

 

I have read "How to Bring Men to Christ" by RA Torrey. I probably need to read it again. As I remember, he did a good job of covering objections.

A little booklet from RBC ministries has been a blessing lately, "How to Share My Faith Without an Argument."

I seem to agree with PTW more often than not but I would not use anything from Hyles. The Hyles spin off churches that I have experienced personally were into "easy believism" and fanatically KJVO.

 

I think PTW was joshing us there ...

I have found Bill Hybels "Becoming a Contagious Christian" good in many terms. It has to be used with discernment. I am thinking of getting the video training course to use to train our people. I have found that book in conjunction with "Building a Contagious Church" by Mittelburg (also at willow creek) to be helpful in thinking. Again, I urge discernment and I hesitate to recommend these for fear that some do not have the discernment necessary.

These guys focus on evangelistic styles that people have and are comfortable with. I think it is a good concept.

I also like the concepts of EE. Used properly, it can be a good tool to equip people with. The tendency is a "cookie cutter" approach which is not helpful. But the principle can be adapted to the different styles of evangelists.

 

I would second Pastor Larry's reference to Building A Contagious Church. One afternoon I was at the Christian bookstore and I picked this one off the shelf at random to show a friend what was wrong with 'church growth' books. I flipped to the chapter titled "Maximizing Outreach Around the Intellectual Style" and found a description that matched prettly closely what I'd been doing and included some suggestions for ways I could improve. So, I took my foot out of my mouth and bought it!

Mark

 

That was definitely a joke. Hyles does have some good material though. It is usually best on a cold winter's night when you run out of firewood.

 

It's helpful if you have a wobbly table. You can put it under a leg to stabilize it. Of course, only if you have a long tablecloth so no one can see the author. Wouldn't want anyone to know we have any of them.

 

I am not familiar with any of those Tom so I have no idea. I have read a little bit about Alpha (in Contagious Church) but I don't know anything about it either.

 

I am currently taking Personal Evangelism in Bible college. One of the books required for the class was "Becoming a Contagious Christian". The professor also gave us a word of caution about it. He said we won't agree with everything in the book, but we can pull some good things out of it.

The other book we are using is "People Sharing Jesus" by Darrell W. Robinson. We have yet to look at it, so I am hesitant to recommend it. I do know the professor thinks very highly of "the NET". He also said a good book is "Tell it Often, Tell it Well". Unfortunately, it is out of print.

[ August 29, 2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: tfisher ]

 

How can Calvinism be "comfortable" using Arminian tactics to Evangelize?

Why not proclaim Calvinism at the start?

"My brothers and sisters. Thank you for attending tonight's meeting. We are here to sit back and watch who will be irresistably caused to give their heart to Christ today. Nothing I say, and nothing you choose will change your fate in the least. God has selected out the FEW of Matt7 to be saved and He does not care about the rest. In fact the odds are - He does not care about you - and if He does - then He probably does not care about your children for it is only the FEW that He chooses and nothing about you causes Him to choose you".

OF course that method would not be "motivating" or "convincing" - but that does not matter in a deterministic system where they aren't making choices in the first place. Nor is anything the Evangelist says - having any affect whatsoever on the outcome.

It is a wonder that Arminian methods are so readily embraced by Calvinist Evangelists. Of course - God is probably making them use the Arminian system.

IN Christ,

Bob

[ September 06, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Because that isn't Calvinism.

"Whosoever will may come" is Calvinism. "Whosoever believeth has eternal life" is Calvinism. "Come ye who are weary and heavy laden" is Calvinism. "Go ye into all the world and make disciples" is Calvinism.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism believe all these things to be absolutely true.

[ September 07, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Its kinda funny listening to Calvinists talk about leading souls to Christ. Why not just let God do the choosing and let it go at that? What is the purpose of telling someone about Christ when it was predetermined before the foundation of the world whether he would believe or not?
Believe me, I'm not being facetious. I,ve wrestled with the subject of Calvinism most of my twenty years as a Christian, but the point of Calvinists reaching others with the gospel just boggles the mind. I sit up at night sometimes listening to Harold Camping and wonder why he has this radio outreach. Please help me understand this. Do you pray? why pray for something thats already been determined.

 

Because every single person that God chooses has to come to Him, and we are the instruments God uses to bring them to Himself.

As Paul says, "I planted, Apollos watered, and God gave the increase." It is up to us to plant and water, but God is the one who determines the size of the harvest.

Well, I always think that if someone's salvation is on my mind, then there is a very good chance that God is doing His saving work within them and is moving me to pray so that He can save them in answer to my prayer. Remember that it is the Holy Spirit that moves us to pray according to God's will so that He can answer us according to His will.

May I ask you a question? Do you pray for people's salvation? Why do you do this if you don't believe it is God who works their salvation, if you don't believe that God's work is the determining factor in anyone's salvation?

I really appreciate the tone of your questions. I hope you don't mind my asking these questions of you.

 

Thats a very good question. The fact that the Father draws us is something I think we both agree on. But I think that the final decision rests on an individual to accept or reject. I pray that the Holy Spirit would convict a persons heart and help them see their need of Christ. I do believe in eternal security and I know we agree here. Sometimes I feel so close to being a Calvinist but I cant get over the fact that I have a free will, and yet I dont want to believe that I had anything to do with it.

BTW, my parents were saved under the ministry of Dr. Carl McIntyre and attended Bible Presbyterian Church in Collingswood N.J. for many years.

 

This may say a lot about your understanding of what we believe. I can't imagine a Calvinist who doesn't share the gospel adn call people to salvation. After all, it is us who have hope with such action because we know God is working. The arminian has no assurance that his words will be used. It is a shot in the dark for him.

 

"Whosoever will " is in fact Arminianism. It is Calvinism "enduring" a text that employes an Arminian form INSTEAD of saying "Whosoever God elects WILL come" as the Cavlnist model would state.

Calvinists never argue "Whosoever will" -- see that's it. INstead they insist on "redefining" the text so that we read INTO it "Whosoever God wills - and selects will come ". See one thing - read another when dealing with a text employing the Arminian format.

Calvinism says "only those that God CAUSES to will - are whosoever wills".

Calvinism says "only when God selects - (arbitrarily without qualification OR ANY "willing" on the part of the sinner") only those "will come" ".

Calvinism says "Nothing the evangelists does or says - will change the outcome since God has already determined what WILL happen".

Calvinism says "God alone WILLS, God alone CHOOSES, God alone determines the results. Nothing man does has any effect at all".

Calvinism says "IF there is even one atom in all the universe that God does not absolutely and totally control - the system breaks down. So no amount of CHOICE on the part of the sinner - has any significance. God has selected the FEW of Matt 7 -- period. End of story. No amount of wishing you were saved will change that.".

And this is "never" preached in the evangelistic meetings as the "method" for reaching the lost.

Imagine the questions that Arminians would be asked by Calvinists IF the Arminians did evanglism via blatant Calvinist "methods"- as in the above. Wouldn't we be asked "Why do you evangelize using the Calvinist model?" by Calvinists? Shouldn't Calvinists "expect" to be asked about their blatant Arminian "methods" by Arminians?.

As it is today - it is obvious even to the most blind - that both groups use the same Evangelistic methods - and that they are clearly appealing to "choice" and "motivation". And that the "Odds are you are not among the FEW of Matt7, God did not die for YOUR sins and God does not love YOU" message believed by Calvinists is not taught by them until AFTER you join.

The message "IF God does love you - nothing says He also loves YOUR children since NOTHING about a person recommends them to God in Unconditional Arbitrary Selection - Election", is buried in the doctrine but not taught from the pulpit.

They say "Unconditional Election" meaning NOTHING about you (not your parents, your choices, your family, your background) causes God to select you, elect you, love you or die for your sins. The fact that this obviously means the same thing for your children is "left as an exercise for the reader" but is not taught in the Evangelistic meetings.

IN Christ,

Bob

[ September 07, 2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Bob,

You are new here I believe. Let me assure you that "whosoever will" is a Calvinist doctrine. Your post is simply wrong. These issues have been hashed out at length. I would encourage you to take some time to search through old posts to see what has been said.

We firmly believe that whososever will may come. There can be no dispute about that.

 

Bob Ryan said of Calvinists:

The Bible says:
For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified......Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect....Romans 8:29,30,33

So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth.
Romans 9:16-18;

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God....1 Thessalonians 1:4

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia,Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.....1 Peter 1:1,2

Bob Ryan says:

The Bible says:
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest,
and causes to come unto thee, that he may dwell in thy house....Psalms 65:4

According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love...Ephesians 1:4

And you (not all) hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...Eph. 2:1

For we (not all men) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works...Eph. 2:10

I wonder if BobRyan can explain these verses (and there are numerous other verses) without "redefining" them to fit his Arminianism ?

 

Pastor Larry attempts to argue that my statements of Calvinism are not correct.

Pinoybaptist on the other hand - takes those statements and shows that they not only ARE the positions of Calvinism - but provides the scriptures that are used in Calvinism to support those views.

Then Pinoybaptist - adds

Bravo Gentlemen! That is having it "both ways".

Together you have said "Bob what you represent as Calvinism is not Calvinism and if it is Calvinism - then it is exactly what scripture teaches".

I say again - excellent!

A second point is that there is a switch of focus by PinoyBaptist from the Arminian-modeled texts I have been raising to those that are in fact less devastating to Calvinism.

The truth is - you don't get Calvinism BECAUSE of those Arminian texts - you get it INSPITE of them.

The same is true of the texts that are more friendly toward the Calvinist view - you do not get the Arminian view BECAUSE of them.

It would be "nice" to inject a note of honesty in the debate that can see beyond the blinders of partisan doctrinal views.

Instead of "pretending" that the Arminian texts "Whosoever will" are what drives Calvinism to say "God Wills - not man" - let's be a bit more honest about WHERE the Calvinist doctrines really DO come from - and where they "tolerate" the text. Pinoybaptist shows where Calvinism DOES come from. Pastor Larry models the more defensive stance of pretending that the Arminian texts are the heart of Calvinism - and the truth is - we can all see the dificulty they pose for the Calvinist position.

I thoroughly appreciate Pinoybaptist's approach that is in essence "you have had US on the ropes for a while - on the horns of the Arminian texts, now lets see how you fare on the horns of the Calvinist ones".

(And of course my arguing as you have done - that your Calvinist texts are "really Arminian" will be as unsatisfactory to you as your claims that the "Arminian texts are secretly Calvinist when properly redefined" does not carry weight with those who do not already share your point of view).

But - this does not address my earlier question - One that accepts our differences as a "Given".

WHY does Calvinism NOT present its views in it's current Arminian-stlye Evangelism? Why not give those frank and blunt statements I showed above - at the START and "See" how such "non-motivation" truly has no-effect? as your model predicts? Watch your deterministic model prove itself in the full light of day!

Tell them about the fact that God "probably" does not love them and "probably" does not love their children EVEN IF they themselves are among the lucky "FEW" lottery winners of God's arbitrary selection process. Tell them "God so loved the World" does not really mean God so loved the "World" - but just the arbitrarily selected "Few" of Matt 7. Tell them up front. Make it a key piece of your evangelism. See what happens.

The response that this is "not Calvinism" does not work in light of Pinoybaptist's emphasis on those very points from scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 08, 2002, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]