Calvinism from a historicle perspective

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Tatian, Jul 10, 2004.

  1. Tatian

    Tatian
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    If people have some understanding, they know the roots of Calvinism lays with Augustine at the beginning of the fifth century. It should be mentioned that all the church fathers before him believed in free will. Origin (4th Cent) for example, had sprawling debates with the Gnostics concerning this topic. But the church fathers who
    were handed the church directly from the apostles
    also believed in it. Why wasn't Augustines election and Limited Atonement taught earlier? Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Ignatious, all of them believed in free will. What are the chances that ALL of the church fathers that were handed the church from the Apostles wouldn't have been told about this and then yet still, the church fathers that followed them, such as Tatian of Syria, Irenius and Mathetes?

    Augustine developed this thought. It is certainly
    his whether through the Holy Spirit or not. Even
    then, the church didn't except his theology in its entirety. They NEVER excepted the theology of
    no free will. Calvinism as you know it, wasn't developed until the 16th century, IT'S PRACTICALLY A NEW THOUGHT!

    I don't believe this puts Calvinism in its grave but it does represent a nail and a couple shovels
    of dirt. I would have thought at least ONE church
    father extented from the apostles would have known this theology instead of believing in free will. Perhaps one of the next generation after that, but nothing.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Well, you can at least show your scholarly understanding by providing us with footnotes and sources on where you based your theories. Besides, your church fathers may not necessarily be the true true church's fathers, so do not make wild claims like 'truths being handed down from the apostles'.
    Were the Apostles Roman Catholics ? Is the Roman Catholic church the true church ?

    That makes you no better than Baptists who claim their present church descended directly from the Jerusalem church, yet stop short of materials showing such roots at the 14th or 15th century. Or Roman Catholics who do the same and point to vague Scriptural references.

    So, which 'church' did not accept Augustine's thoughts ? Is that church descended from the New Testament church ? Is it a New Testament church ?

    Your arguments are certainly nails and dirt against a worthy opponent, if that is what you wish to believe, but certainly not the Bible, since the Bible itself teaches God's absolute sovereignty over all His creation and His absolute holiness, against man's utter sinfulness and need of a Savior who knows him in and out.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The church father known as Paul preached these doctrines long before Augustine. In fact, those with understanding know that Calvinists find their doctrine in the Scriptures, not the church fathers.
     
  4. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Guys!!

    The church fathers were in closer temporal proximity to the church than we - but they are no less human and no less fallible.

    Certainly God used men like Tertullian and Origen to further His cause but that does not mean EVERYTHING they said was correct.

    I have many problems with "Calvinism" - but lack of respect for scripture isn't one of them!
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    CM said:

    The question is: which church fathers are Tatian referring to ? I mean, Tertullian probably, or even Polycarp, we know these men were persecuted by the Roman Empire, and killed.

    But, I protest lumping them up together with those who were part of the Roman Empire and the emerging Roman Catholic Church of that time, because that would imply that Baptists came out of the Roman Catholic church, and we did not ! Protestants, yes. Luther, yes. Calvin ? Yes. Zwingli ? Yes. Savonarola ? Yes. Are these the people Tatian is calling the church 'fathers' ?

    Augustine ? He wasn't part of the Roman Catholic church because there was no Roman Catholic church during his time. Rome was ruled by the emperor, and there were former catacomb churches who came out and became state-tolerated churches ruled by a the Bishop of Rome (if I remember correctly, but you can correct me if I am wrong).
     
  6. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe
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    Brother Tatian:

    YOU BROTHER TATIAN SAID: It should be mentioned that all the church fathers before him believed in free will. Origin (4th Cent) for example, had sprawling debates with the Gnostics concerning this topic. But the church fathers who
    were handed the church directly from the apostles
    also believed in it. Why wasn't Augustines election and Limited Atonement taught earlier? Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Ignatious, all of them believed in free will. What are the chances that ALL of the church fathers that were handed the church from the Apostles wouldn't have been told about this and then yet still, the church fathers that followed them, such as Tatian of Syria, Irenius and Mathetes


    ME (BROTHER JOE): Brother Tatian, dont you remember St. Paul's prophecies that shortly after his departure that churches would be given heretical teachings? If you dont here are the reminders.

    Firstly, in the book of Acts Paul prophecies to those in the church at Ephesus (Acts 20:17) (*********the very SAME church he preached election to in his epistle ********)that he knows....

    "Acts 20: 29 this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

    Also, remember Paul wrote to the church of Galatia before his death, "6 I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED FROM HIM that called you into the GRACE OF CHRIST UNTO ANOTHE GOSPEL:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT THE GOSPEL of Christ." (Galations 1:6-7)


    Finally, Paul also warned Timothy, "1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (1 Timothy 4:1-3)


    Brother Tatian, these scriptures are just one of the reasons why I do not put my trust in the early church father's doctrines, but rather scripture alone. Let us hold fast to the word of truth. What would have happened if our Christ decided not many people adhered to his doctrines thus he must be wrong, and should rather adhere to the doctrines of the pharisees and saducees? Afterall, they were the church fathers of his time. But, nay, our Christ went by scripture alone and not the doctrines of men.

    God Bless you,

    Brother Joe
     
  7. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    "Baptists came out of the Roman Catholic church, and we did not ! Protestants, yes. Luther, yes. Calvin ? Yes. Zwingli ? Yes. Savonarola ? Yes."

    Oh come on!!! [​IMG]

    EVERYONE came out of the RCC, whether we like it or not!!
     
  8. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    Not true, time to go back to church history class. There are even some in the catholic tradition who were never "Roman Catholic". Rememeber the division of the church into east and west.

    Bro Tony
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    OK Bro Tony,

    You're right on that one! I should have said we're all from the early catholic church!
     
  10. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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