Calvinism is the best system

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jarthur001, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Just posted an article that shows Calvinism is the best argument against Atheist dogma. As I have debated atheist over the last few years, I have seen Atheist use arguments that non-Calvinist often use.

    LINK.. Atheist argument based on emotion

    It's a rather long one, so you may not wish to read it. But if you do read it, I would like your feed back

    Thanks..james
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Can you post here one clear example that might demonstrate of why you feel that way? Thanks.
     
  3. Jon-Marc

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    Personally I believe that northern Independent Fundamental Baptist is the best, but then it's just a matter of individual choice isn't it?
     
  4. steaver

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    The very fact that there is so many "Ways" declared by many different sects shows the very reason why God needed to make salvation clear and simple for the simple minded folks.

    Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

    So many begin well, but then they make shipwreck their faith and they fall from grace. Yet he himself shall be saved (1Cor 3)

    Gal 5:7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
    Gal 5:8 This persuasion [cometh] not of him that calleth you.

    1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:


    :jesus:
     
  5. Jarthur001

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    The atheist writer is called Ghost . His words are in the quotes within the whole quote
     
  6. DHK

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    As you summed up he bases his arguments on his emotions and how he feels. Therefore he is not much of a debater. In previous years we have had atheists on this board who presented far more convincing arguments than this fellow. Calvinism wouldn't have made a dent. No "system" of theology would. It is a thorough knowledge of the entire Word, or the whole counsel of God, and the ability to refute one's claim with the Scripture, now with a system of theology.
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: O’le Ghost hit it on the head there. What is sad is when even an atheist appears to exhibit more sound reasoning than some theologians do. (Don’t tell Ghost I said that. The illogical and unscriptural notions of Calvinism are a blight upon all that name the name of Christ, even us who would refute the same points as Ghost refutes. Calvinism is so prevalent in todays Christian circles, some may feel they represent the whole of Christian thought, which is far from the truth. I would say that from what I have read, there is hope for Ghost. At least he still has some reasoning capabilities intack)




    HP: Sorry JA, but you are dead wrong. Ghost is reasoning from his God given intuitive reasoning, in particular from immutable truths of justice. Such God given reasoning is NOT hinged on mere emotion but intuitive truths instilled in the heart and mind of every reasonable individual. To deny such truth is to cavil at any understanding of truth whatsoever.

    I am NOT saying that Ghost limits his understanding to the truth he presents here, and most likely he has developed conclusions far from the truth in the end, but indeed he knows intuitively where Calvinism misses the mark, and so do a lot of the rest of us as well.




    HP: There is not one solitary ‘fact of Scripture’ that refutes the position Ghost has taken on this point so far. It is the false interpretation of Scripture as believed by the Calvinist that is far from Scripture, and reason as well I might add.
     
  8. billwald

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    >A living creature without free will, or some equivalent decision-making capability, would necessarily be guided purely by preprogrammed instinct.

    For the record, the mechanically programmed hypothesis was developed before we knew that God programmed a random factor into this universe. For example, vacuum tubes are "Newtonian" but transistors are quantum (statistical) machines.
     
  9. billwald

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    INTERESTING websit

    Thanks for the ULR.

    But the essay is verbose and the question is so easy. Calvinism is the best system to psychologically prepare a person for these sorts of discussions. Why? Because the Calvinist knows that the Holy Spirit is working on people and has prepared them to respond positively to the Good News. How does the Calvinist know this? Because Jesus has NOT returned. If there were no more elect elect people needing to hear the Good News then God would have no logical need to perpetuate "this evil age" and we would be in "the age to come."
     
  10. Peggy

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    Calvinism is the most depressing "system" of theology.

    The Bible says that Jesus died for all, that He desires all men to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    Calvinism limits Jesus's atonement to "some men", and you never know if you are in or out.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    That is because Calvinism is wrong and the Atheist hopes that the Christian debating them will be a Calvinist - since they then have some clear areas of error they can expose.

    I don't envy the Calvinist that is placed in that situation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. eightball

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    Sadly, when presenting a purist-Calvinist presentation to a non-believer, it can easily be interpreted by the non-believer as "aloofism".

    Why?: Because it presents to the non-believer the doctrine or message that "they"(the non-believer) may or may not be loved of God or are "called".........

    Conclusion: The one presenting the purist Calvinistic gospel is in most cases covertly sending a message to the non believer that they(the Christian) was of the "chosen"............yet they the "prospect" may or may not be...........but if you are currently seeking or interested in knowing God, maybe you are one of the "elect". What an "iffy" and "scarey" scenario. I thank God that when I was young and presented with the gospel, that it was explained as clearly as "Peggy" who posted a ways back.

    The purist Calvinist has made what was a very simple communique from God, a very "iffy" and "shakey" thing IMO. It also promolgates big letter "P" pride in the purist Calvinist whether they want to accept this or not. When we consider ourselves to be one of the "elect" from before even being knitted in our mother's womb, the natural, base, human response/instinct is to consider oneself, "special" in ways that cause one to look at "some of" lost humanity as eternal discards, or "lost causes" for salvation. So now we evangelize at a mass to the peoples, and some will respond, and some won't. There is no desire to be more Christlike to present one's self to the unbelieving world in a more convincing, and Godly way. Afterall, "I" just have to do, "Thus sayeth the Lord", and then my responsiblity is done.

    IMO opinion, a damnable condition or future-outlook, for any person who is possibly seeking or is even indifferent when initially presented the Calvinist angle on Christ's gospel. If I was informed as a non-believer that I may or may-not be one of His..........What a massive rejection of my person as a human being would that be! The Purist Calvinist God seems not unlike the Greek/Roman gods that omnipotently made decisions towards mankind with indifference.
    ******
    To this day..........I've pondered and pondered............how can the purist Calvinist have any motivation to evangelize.........Of course John MacArthur and others will continue to say that they evangelize like someone fireing a machine gun at a crowd of people...........They/Calvinists don't know who's called, but the bullets must fly anyway, so that some will hit the "called" of God. How can there be a loving, longing, desire of specificity towards any of the lost with this paradigm?

    What motivation is there to reach the "lost world" with this doctrine?
    ******
    I've visited many strong Calvinist/reformed churches a guest of Calvinist friends, and the amount of emphasis on outreach to the lost is much less than what I've observed in churches where their doctrine takes a "middle ground" between Calvinism and Armenianism. I.E. what I would call "balanced".

    God is not grey-area'd, but His salvation and mode of operation can and is His way..........It is most mysterious yet facinating how the H.S. works both independent of believers and through believers to convict this lost world.

    Those that rejected Jesus were being "pricked" in the conscience by the H.S. as well as those that didn't reject but pursued more of Christ and His ministry.

    Men reject Christ not out of being rejected from before they were knitted in their mother's wombs, but because the Spirit of God is giving working on them, and they are excercising their God created free-will.

    I just think that Purist Calvinists have a hard time with this God endowed free will paradigm. It's not unlike the mystery of the Trinitarian make-up of the Godhead. The more we try to figure it out in our finite human minds, the more we must resolve to accept that it just, "is". The Spirit gives us comfort that God expresses Himself in three distinct Persons..........and that's just the way it is.

    One the other hand, "free will" seems baffling to what we know or think we know of God's nature as expressed both in the O.T. and the N.T.. If God is sovereign over all of His creation, then how is it that His creation can do or choose to do anything that isn't in His divine or omnipotent will? Again, are finite minds are at an impasse, but we must, just accept that "free will" is a reality in God's human species.

    Again, I find that with most purist Calvinists that I've met, that reaching out to the lost is a "duty" or "command" much more than an action initiated by a "love, or longing" for others to enjoy the "new eternal life" offered of God.

    In some instances I've found that the Reformists who are exclusively Calvinistic tend to become more clanish, and expend an awful lot of their energetic lives trying to "win" over Christian, non-Calvinists or middle-roaders who embrace the biblical points in both camps. It is always dangerous ground for believers when the start to expend their energies towards the saved in order to make them "right" with God, than expending the energy towards bring the lost into the fold. Please don't mix this up with discipleship which isn't a work of evangelization, but a work of helping the believers to grow in maturity. Discipleship is most important, but the purist Calvinist, seems to have an awfully heavy and off balanced burden to make the all believers at home in their camp.

    This last paragraph does concern me the most. It is the purist Calvinists energies being used more often to convince those of God's flock of their doctrine, more than the reaching-out to a lost, confused, and dieing world.
    ********
    Purist Calvinism at it's end product or results has two camps............Those that were "pre-programmed" from before time began to be God's children, and those from before time that were "Damned to hell". The flock was already established, they have the right "chips" in their souls, and the others either don't have'em or have "purposely" corrupted ones in them that God purposely corrupted so that they "could not" turn to Him in any way.

    When I read the N.T. it does not reveal to me this "nature" of God that the Purist Calvinist embraces. Jesus said to His disciples that if you know me, you know the Father as well, becaue He/Jesus and the Father are One.
    *****
    Also, the great word, "Grace".............How does it stackup against the purist Calvinist doctrine of pre-selective election? Where is the grace to be appreciated by the purist Calvinist? I.E. "Thank you God that you picked me from eternity-past out of myriads that you decided not to pick."?

    Oh yes, grace should make us think and feel special.........cause grace=unmerited favor to the nth degree. Did God limit His grace to just some of us? I thought that grace is a condition or offering of God's unmerited favor.........................that "Whoever should believe"..................Yes, "whoever".............should believe will be saved?

    Peggy, back a few posts-ago just simply mentioned "the world"...............That was Peggy's response to this selective, election, that is based not on any cooperative will of man in conjunction with God's calling via the H.S............called "Calvinism".

    Christ called us to come to Him as children..................Not theologians, or pseudo intellectuals.........who think they know the mind of God to the nth degree. God's gospel via Christ is simple, direct, and convincing via the work of the H.S. in every individual human being He created.

    Did intentionally make millions of human beings just for kindling in hell's fire.?.............That isn't the God that was revealed to me through Jesus Christ.
     
    #12 eightball, Mar 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2010
  13. billwald

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    >Calvinism is the most depressing "system" of theology.

    If God is a dispensationalist then Jesus can never return because all people must be given an opportunity to accept or reject thus there must be several years of human sterility before Jesus can return. Reformed people can know that Jesus will return as soon as the last elect person is regenerate.

    >The Bible says that Jesus died for all, that He desires all men to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    Calvin never taught that going to Hell is the null case. Every person could be regenerate except individuals whom the Bible specifically names as condemned - such as Judas.

    >Calvinism limits Jesus's atonement to "some men", and you never know if you are in or out.

    There is no objective test for regeneration so no one can know in this life. After all, we are all liars and there is no good in any of us. No one is seeking righteousness. Some of us fake it better than others.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: An Excellent post Eightball, with much food for thought. :thumbs:
     
  15. steaver

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    Good points Eightball! :thumbs:
     
  16. billwald

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    Truth, most "Calvinists" have never read Calvin. Much current "Reformed"
    teaching is NOT Calvinist. Calvin taught that God could "save" ANYONE "in Christ Jesus."

    If 90% of a school classroom fails the consensus is usually poor teaching. Why do (some) Christians claim that 90% of humanity are going to Hell AND then give God a free pass?
     
  17. gb93433

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    Calvinism is not scripture so why waste my time on anything that is less than the word of God. I will study scripture. Scripture is eternal

    Is. 40:8, "The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
     
  18. gb93433

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    I find that many of them limit their view of God's sovereignty and do do not accept scripture in its entirety without making it into something it is not. Just as they limit God's atonement they also limit God's word. [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,

    1Sam 16:14-16 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him. Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you. "Let our lord now command your servants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall play the harp with his hand, and you will be well."

    1Sam 16:23 So it came about whenever the evil spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play it with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.

    1Sam 18:10 Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.

    1Sam 19:9 Now there was an evil spirit from the Lord on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.
     
  19. Rippon

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    so what?

    Get specific.

    I don't know where you got that percentage, or where you derived the piece of info that most Christians believe that. And what does that have to do with Calvinistic beliefs on the matter? I don't see the relationship.
     
  20. Rippon

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    Calvinism is exceedingly scriptural.

    Amen!
     

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