Calvinism & Lordship Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    In regard to the preaching of the gospel, John MacArthur says,
    Later MacArthur writes:
    MacArthur is saying that God will allow the gospel truth to be revealed to the elect, but as for those outside the elect, they will be left in spiritual darkness. This means the Holy Spirit, promised and sent by Jesus Christ to convince and convict the world of sin, righteous and judgment to come (John 16:7-11), is effectively working only on behalf of those who were unconditionally elected. This is Calvinism’s Irresistible Grace: a universal offer of salvation is made to all the world’s population, but the effective wooing of the Holy Spirit to salvation is extended only to the elect and it cannot be resisted.

    Then MacArthur writes, “In God’s plan, the elect will believe despite the negative response of the multitudes.” (Ibid., p. 115.) MacArthur is saying even though the non-elect has a negative response to a message they cannot receive, the elect will believe. What he did not state plainly is the active agent of believing is Calvinism’s Irresistible Grace. For the Calvinist this means those whom God elected for salvation has no will or choice in the matter and their conversion is irresistibly thrust upon them.

    So what we have is one group chosen for Heaven and they will be irresistibly brought to choose salvation. The other group is left to run out their life’s course on the road to Hell and there is nothing any amount of gospel preaching will do about it. MacArthur, representing the Calvinistic doctrine of the Lordship advocates, means God intentionally keeps the gospel of Jesus Christ hidden from those who are not of the elect. The Scriptures have a better answer!
    God does not hold lost men in darkness. It is the Devil who unconditionally blinds the minds of the entire world’s population. But God be thanked for He commands the light of the glorious gospel of Christ to shine upon all men. God does not withhold light or truth from one select group of the world’s population. All who choose to believe the gospel and receive Jesus Christ by faith are saved.

    Comments?


    LM
     
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    To the underlined.

    I'm a Calvinist and I do not believe this. I know about 20 Calvinist on this board and none believe this. I have read many Calvinist books and not one has ever said this. John MacArthur is a Calvinist and he does not believe this.

    Please name me one Calvinist that believes this. Maybe there is one, but I have yet to meet him.

    This is yet another mislead by Lou, who it is clear does not understand Calvinism.

    Why mislead lou?
     
  3. annsni

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    Romans 9 (ESV)

    1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

    "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
    and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
    26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
    there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

    27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." 29And as Isaiah predicted,

    "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
    we would have been like Sodom
    and become like Gomorrah."
    Israel’s Unbelief
    30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,

    "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
    and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
     
  4. Amy.G

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    If grace is irresistible, then one is unable to resist it. Therefore, one cannot have a choice. How else can it be?
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

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    Ageed. I'm a Calvinist and I do not believe this either.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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    37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

    38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

    39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

    40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    John 12
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    Perhaps you could find where Irresistable Grace is explained by a Calvinist and show us how it says what Lou was trying to say it is.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    And I thought you study Calvinism. :)

    Irresistible grace is the moment of salvation. Man resist over and over till that time.

    Its when the lights go on....its when the blindness falls....its when Holy Spirit opens the heart....its when the sinner sees for the very 1st time he is a sinner and that Christ is his only hope for salvation....

    Then....

    at that moment


    The sinner runs into the arms of God....for grace is irresistible.

    No force is needed.
     
  9. TCGreek

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    I may disagree with some of what Dr. MacArthur has to say in the Lordship debate, but I still remain committed to the Doctrines of Grace, for they are biblical.

    TC
     
    #9 TCGreek, Jul 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2008
  10. RustySword

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    I'm a Calvinist (probably), and I'm not sure I believe half of what non-Calvinists say I believe.

    Beware of the temptation to try to disprove a position by pushing it into absurdity.

    The Bible clearly teaches individual election. I tried to deny it for years but once I started reading the Bible book by book, chapter by chapter and verse by verse, I couldn't see any way around it. I got tired of trying to explain away the obvious.

    On the other hand, the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is offered to all, and that all are responsible to respond. The statement, "I didn't believe on You because you didn't elect me" will not go over well at the judgment.

    Let's just say that God made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    Yes, I studied it. :) But as you said, "man resists over and over until that time." Is it not "grace" that he's resisting over and over? Why does God offer this resistible grace when the sinner is not able to accept it (because heart has not been opened)?
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    The call to salvation goes out to all. Whosoever may come.

    Isa..
    Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    Joel 2
    Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

    Heb...
    Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    All are free to come. All are called to come. Who comes?

    No one comes
    Rom...
    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

    so how is one saved?

    Election. :)
     
    #12 Jarthur001, Jul 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2008
  13. Jarthur001

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    I know of no one I agree 100% with, save Christ.

    I disagree with Calvin in many things. Pink...I love, but cannot agree with all.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Somehow, I knew you would say that. :tongue3:
     
  15. TCGreek

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    That's good, my brother. :thumbs:
     
  16. Rippon

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    I checked Lou's records. Since 7/27/07 till now 7/30/08 my time, he has posted nine -- count em' 9 times where he has "Lordship" explicitly stated in his thread titles. Five, count em' 5 times in which he waxes inelegantly on the subject without using the word in the thread title.So on 14 occasions he thinks it was necessary to besmirch John MacArthur.For him to deny that and say it has nothing to do with personalities is a falsehood.He is going about as a man possessed.He has an inordinate obsession about trying to soil John MacArthur's reputation at all costs.He has no shame.There are other more pressing concerns in the Kingdom of God which he could address. But no. Lou is compulsive.He wants to do as much damage as possible while the Christian world watches his vain striving.

    He needs a more edifying hobby. He should get a more constructive pastime.There are some deadly doctrines out there Lou.But John MacArthur is not the kind of guy you should want to take down.Statistically, since he is about 17 years older than you -- he may precede you in death. On Judgment Day he will be told "Well done, my good and faithful servant."All your little darts will be seen as so much useless dust.

    Are you jealous of his ministry, or what? You sound like a man half-crazed.I've heard of hobby-horses before, but this takes the proverbial cake.Are you capable of participating in threads in which John MacArthur's name is not brought up in a negative light by yourself? Can you wean yourself off the subject? Don't worry about withdrawl symptoms. If you get off this "drug," it will be well-worth it.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Sometimes methinks Mr. Lou Martuneac is about to actually go down the road of the shooters. Watch your back, Dr. Mac !
     
  18. Lou Martuneac

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    According to Calvinism the invitation that "goes out to all" is an invitation to a closed door for the non-elect. According to Calvinists I have spoken to: God s "active" in bringing the elect to salvation; and He is "passive" toward the non-elect. Calvinism teaches that the Holy Spirit extends a special inward calling, but only to those elected to salvation. Through this calling the sinner is irresistibly drawn to Christ and the Spirit causes the sinner to cooperate.

    Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! God’s grace was rejected. It was not irresistible, as the Calvinist would have you believe. One preacher said, “If grace is irresistible it is not grace at all.”

    Oh, but for the Calvinist this means the lost man has already been regenerated prior to and apart from faith because according to the Calvinist the lost cannot hear or respond to the Gospel. So, why does he need to come to Christ as, "his only hope for salvation," when he has been born again already?

    LM
     
    #18 Lou Martuneac, Jul 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2008
  19. Lou Martuneac

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    Rippon:

    Try as you may to create a personality clash, there is none outside of the personality clash you bring to the threads because of your personality affinity for personalities.

    In my book I cite several LS advocates: MacArthur, Gentry, Chantry. JM will always get the lion's share of attention from writer's on both sides of the LS debate because JM is the most well-known, prolific writer and apologists for LS. He, by virtue of his major apologetics, and possibly default speaks for the entire LS movement.

    Because of his popularity and name recognition MacArthur is IMO the most dangerous LS apologist. Many will accept whatever he writes because his reputation precedes him, he is sound in other areas and so they feel no need to look carefully at his LS teaching. This is why his views need to be exposed for careful scrutiny.

    That’s why his name, his writing is under scrutiny and the biblical answers given. Unsuspecting Christians deserve to be shown and warned that LS is a works based, non-saving message that frustrates grace and who the leading teachers of this doctrinal error are.

    The problem you are having is that the discussion of what MacArthur is writing is taken personally by you. You, therefore, are having the personality clash.

    If you will focus on what JM is writing, and not so much on your personal affinity for him you might be able to recognize the obvious problems in his definition of the Gospel FOR salvation.

    I trust you will receive this with the graciousness that I have written it.


    LM
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

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    I have had no personal interest of affinity for John MacArthur. I have from time to time read a bit or two of his books, and seen a video of his teaching dealing with the nature of truth. What I have seen was very good. The book I have read most of Dr. MacArthur is Charismatic Chaos which helped me greatly break away from the charismatic movement.

    But now that there has been so much attack by you upon him in regards to the Gospel I am going to buy the book you so much seek to defame...for methinks the true Gospel is preached therein... :laugh:
     

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