Calvinism makes God Insincere of His Word

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 7, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    Based on the error that is called "Limited Atonement", and that of "Unconditional Election", Calvinists teach that the "offer of the Gospel" is made to all without exception. That is, for the whole world, every single person.

    Frist of all we have to establisg what the Gospel consists of. The apostle Paul informs us, that "the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God resulting in Salvation to everyone who believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). Then, at the start of His Ministry, Jesus Himself says: "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent ye and believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15). And in chapter 16 in Mark, Jesus says that we are to "preach the Gospel to every creature" (verse 15).

    Now, the "Gospel", or "Good News" that we are commanded to preach to "every creature", that is, "every human being without exception", must consist of the Good News that Jesus Christ has died for our sins, thereby making it possible for anyone to believe in this great Truth, and thereby have eternal life. We cannot say that the Good News that we are to preach, is that the majority of the world are damned and going to hell. This is NOT Good News. It is true, and must be included as a warning to those who will reject the Good News of Salvation.

    What do the Calvinist make of this universal offer of the Gospel? I will quote from two "heavy-weights"

    Dr Loraine Boettner:

    "The Gospel is, nevertheless, to be offered to all men, with the assurance that it is exactly adapted to the needs of all men, and that God has decreed that all who place their faith in Christ shall be saved by Him. No man is lost because of any deficiency in the objective atonement, or because God has placed any barrier in his way, but only because of subjective difficulties, specifically, because his own evil disposition and his freely exercised wicked will prevent his believing and accepting that atonement" (Studies in Theology, pp.323-324)

    What Dr Boettner is here saying, that because the offer of the Gospel is to be made to all men, and that if they were to place their trust in Jesus, they will be saved. Thus far I can agree with. He then goes on to say, that God has not placed any barrier in the way of those who have the offer of the Gospel, but, it is because of their wicked will, that they reject this offer. This is incorrect, and contarary to Calvinsitic dogma.

    Now, if the above statement were true, and I believe that it is, then there remains a problem with the Calvinistic system. That the offer of the Gospel for Salvation is freely made to one and all, is not doubted, as Boettner has shown, and that all who place their trust in Jesus will be saved. Amen to that. However, herein lies that problem. "Limited Atonement" means, that the death of Jesus Christ is not for "everyone without exception", but, "everyone without distinction", as the Calvinists prefer. That Jesus only died "for His elect". For the sake of argument, let us assume that this is correct. This then is the barrier that God has placed in the way of all those who have the Gospel freely preached to. If the Atonement is "Limited", that is, only for a certain few, then how can God offer the Gospel of Salvation to "everyone without exception", if He had not made provision in the Atonement for "everyone without exception"? ONLY on the basis of an "UNlimited Atonement", can there be any sincere offer of the Gospel made to "everyone without exception".

    Dr Robert Dabney has this to say:

    "that there are passages which imply that Christ died for all sinners in some sense, as Dr Ch. Hodge has so expressly admitted. Certainly the expiation made by Christ is so related to all. irrespective of election, that God can sincerely invite all to enjoy its benefits, that every soul in the world who desires salvation is warranted to appropriate it; and that even a Judas, had he come in earnest, would not have been cast out" (Systematic Theology, p.527)

    Again, with the Atonement being "Limited", the offer of the Gospel to "every soul in the world who desires salvation is warranted to appropriate it", is but a mere hoax. It cannot be sincere to say that God desires all to be saved, but in actual fact, as only made provision in the Atonment for the "elect". This is double-standards.

    This is NOT what the God of the Bible is like. He has indeed made the offer of Salvation in the Gospel to "everyone without exception", beuacse He has made provision for "everyone without exception", in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Anything else is making God to be insincere of what He has actually said in His Word.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Most Calvinist would agree with you, including Boettner and Dabney, I believe. The issue is not provision, but application or intention. Did God intend the atonement to save everyone? Is the atonement applied to everyone? The answer is No. God made a provision that all could be saved, and man is kept from salvation only by his own willful sin. God is not forcing anyone to go to hell and reject Christ. They do that naturally.

    Understanding Calvinism actually will help you avoid these kind of error filled posts. Unfortunately, these posts come all too often.
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Icthus;
    Good post Amen
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. Kiffen

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    Pastor Larry is correct. Understanding Calvinism actually will help you avoid these kind of error filled posts.
     
  5. icthus

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    Most Calvinist would agree with you, including Boettner and Dabney, I believe. The issue is not provision, but application or intention. Did God intend the atonement to save everyone? Is the atonement applied to everyone? The answer is No. God made a provision that all could be saved, and man is kept from salvation only by his own willful sin. God is not forcing anyone to go to hell and reject Christ. They do that naturally.

    Understanding Calvinism actually will help you avoid these kind of error filled posts. Unfortunately, these posts come all too often.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Pastor Larry, I think that you, like all the Calvinists that I know, do not understand what the Bible teaches regarding the doctrines of the Atonement, and the Savlation that is abailable in Jesus.

    The premise of Calvinism on the Atonement is wrong. The death of Jesus Christ did NOT actually save anyone, but makes it possible for anyone who believes in His finished work to be saved. If you would care to read Romans 3:25-26, you will learn this truth there:

    "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. To declare, I say , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus"

    "Set forth" from the Greek means, "to offer". Jesus has been offered to the world as their propitiation for sins, through faith in His blood. Those who believe on the finished work of Christ, will be justified.

    To say that the death of Jesus actually saved the elect, then why would they need to repent and believe the gospel, as they would be saved without doing this. If "elect" equals "saved", by the assumption that Jesus' death had actually saved them, then they are saved regardless of whether they were to believe or not. How can you say that God is willing for all to hear the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus, when you know that Jesus has not died for all without exception? How, then can those He has not died for ever be saved, since only the death of Jesus can save anyone? How can you hold out the offer of salvation to everyone, knowing that everyone CANNOT be saved, even if they wanted to, since Christ has not, according to the error of Calvinism, died for them all?

    Why just you calvinists just admit that your "system" is at odds with the teaching of Scripture?
     
  6. icthus

    icthus
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    Why don't you then answer my post, instead of arguing about something you know is not from the Bible? Make it simple. If the offer of the Gospel of salvation is for everyone, then Christ would have had to died for everyone. Prove me wrong from Scripture, and don't hide behind what Pastor Larry might say, as he is very clearly wrong.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    Actually real understanding will help you know Calvinism is false. :D
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. icthus

    icthus
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    Actually real understanding will help you know Calvinism is false. :D
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]AMEN, BROTHER!
     
  9. icthus

    icthus
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    Forget trying to understand what Calvinism teaches, as it is full of contradictions to what the Bible teaches; and rather spend your time seeing what the Bible says!
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Half right ... The death of Christ does make it possible for any to be saved, since all they need do is believe. But the death of Christ does actually save.

    No, it doesn't ... IT means to "display publicly." It has nothing to do with offering something.

    No they wouldn't. This is hte kind of statement that shows you don't know what Calvinism teaches. The death of Christ secures salvation and man repents and believes the gospel. Both are necessary.

    If so, then perhaps. But elect doesn't equal salvation. Election is to salvation (2 Thess 2:13; 2 Tim 2:10; etc).

    I know that Jesus did die for all without exception. That is what limited atonement teaches. But it teaches more than that. Not only did Jesus die for all, he died to save some. But I don't say that God is willing for all to hear the gospel of salvation in Christ. There are plainly those who, through the history of hte world, did not hear the gospel. Yet they are without excuse.

    Scripture holds out the gospel of salvation to all who believe. That is why Calvinism teaches that. Second, those who want to be saved can be saved. If you knew what Calvinism taught, you would know that. Thirdly, Calvinism is not in error. You aren't even addresssing Calvinism. You are addressing something you made up.

    Because it is a sin to lie.
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Icthus;
    Actually Calvinist don't understand Calvinism because no one can understand contradictions.
    May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    That doesn't apply here since we are not talking about contradictions. We are talking about false statements made about Calvinism from the OP. Please keep on topic ...
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    Not true.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    Of course we know you're right huh! I guess it depends on which dictionary you use. In this case it is clearly a purposal. Of course Larry is translating his own bible version and is much better at it than anyone else. I just can't wait until he publishes it.
    God's word says you don't know what you're talking about.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved
    These verses only apply to the saved which is who Paul is talking to. The unsaved are elected for Salvation until they are saved then it is to Salvation Gramar Larry!.
    Larry read this quote from you above like it was from some one else. Then you'll see that you're saying it is and it isn't. Then you wonder why you don't understand Calvinism.
    Are you saying that even if one is not elect they can still be saved?
    I agree it is a sin to lie so why do you preach the contradiction to scripture by preaching Calvinism?
    May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. MargoWriter

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  15. ILUVLIGHT

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  16. MargoWriter

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    Iluvlight, you are so funny, ROFL. (That was not a person attack. I swear. ;) )

    Let's have a calvinist/arminian bean supper. ROFL
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    That is not a possibility, but a fact. Through Christ the world is saved because he is the only way.

    Of course we know you're right huh! I guess it depends on which dictionary you use. In this case it is clearly a purposal. Of course Larry is translating his own bible version and is much better at it than anyone else. I just can't wait until he publishes it.</font>[/QUOTE]No, all you need to do is look at the Greek lexicons about the word God inspired Paul to use and study what God was saying in the context. It wasn't about an offer of anything. It was a demonstration (a public display) of righteousness. Don't take my word for it; look it up and study it out.

    God's word says you don't know what you're talking about.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved</font>[/QUOTE]
    Where does God's word contradict me? And why did you quote John 3:17 again?

    These verses only apply to the saved which is who Paul is talking to. The unsaved are elected for Salvation until they are saved then it is to Salvation Gramar Larry!.</font>[/QUOTE]What??? This makes no sense. Did you read 2 Tim 2:10? It is not about the saved. Paul clearly says that the elect aren't yet saved. Just reading the verse would have helped you avoid that mistake.

    But you admit that the unsaved are elected for salvation. These verses show that there are elect that aren't yet saved. Election is not the same as salvation. Election is to salvation, or for salvation. There is no difference there.

    Larry read this quote from you above like it was from some one else. Then you'll see that you're saying it is and it isn't.</font>[/QUOTE]Is and isn't what?

    I don't wonder about that. I do understand Calvinism. You don't, and you keep making that clear. The longer you talk, the more it becomes clear that you have no idea what you are talking about and that you don't listen to those who do. As I have said before, you don't have to agree with us, but at least be willing to learn what we actually believe.

    Anyone who believes will be saved. The elect are who will believe.

    I don't. You are still operating from a false premise, based on your gross misunderstanding. Mike, time and time again you reveal that you don't know what you are talking about. It is quite funny to read you, because it isn't even sensible to argue against Calvinism in the way that you are. I don't even think you really believe what you are saying. I don't preach a contradiction to Scripture. I preach the word of God as it stands.

    He already has ... Why do you keep saying this? He has shown us his light in Scripture ... Why not just believe it?
     
  18. icthus

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    Larry, you say "Anyone who believes will be saved. The elect are who will believe"

    Who is the "anyone" referring to? Read 1 Timothy 4:10.

    "God is the Saviour of all men, especially those that believe"

    "all men" must mean the whole world without exception, or else the part, "especially those that believe" is meaningless.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    I answered that. It refers to the ones who believe, just like Scripture says.

    I don't disagree that God is the Savior of all men. He saves them from the immediate temporal consequences of their sin. He saves them from immediate judgment that they deserve. Men are kept from salvation only by their own sin and willful rejection of Christ. That is what Calvinism teaches.

    Paul goes on to teach what has become known as Calvinism ... that only those who are believers are saved eternally.
     
  20. whetstone

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    yeah, like larry said, it's hard to take this thread seriously if Calvinism is misrepresented from the first post. Attack the doctrines of grace all you want, but attacking something that we don't believe won't illicit any defenses.
     

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