Calvinism makes God the author of sin!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by aa0310, Feb 9, 2005.

  1. aa0310

    aa0310
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    Calvinism teaches that God has foreordained all things that come to pass. They base this on supposition that if God does not "ordain", or "cause" ALL THINGS, then He cannot be God. This of course is grave error, as we cannot believe this without saying that God also "ordains" the sins of man!

    Indeed, Wayne Grudem says, "We have to come to the point where we confess that we do not understand how it is that God can ordain that we carry out evil deeds and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blamed Himself" Wow!!!

    "Ordain" means that God "causes" us to carry out evil deeds! However, though God "ordains" us to do evil, which must include sin, yet, after we have done the evil deed, God holds us responsible for doing them!!! This is completely against what the Word of God teaches, as it does make God the author of our sinful actions! Further, if our evil actions are something that is controlled by an outside force, then surely they cannot be said to be our actions at all, as they do not originate with us. Then we cannot be accountable for our sinfil lives!

    Dr J Gresham Machen says something similar to what Grudem says. "When God causes the bringing to pass of the evil actions of man, He does that in still a different way. He does not tempt men to sin; He does not influence them to sin. But He causes the bringing to pass of those deeds by the by the free and responsible choices of personal beings. He has created those beings with the awful gift of freedom of choice. The things that they do in exercise of that gift are their acts. They do not, indeed, surprise God by doing of them; their doing of them is part of His eternal plan: yet in doing of them they, and not the holy God, are responsible" (The Christian View of Man, page 44).

    Here we read that man does have a free will, but as I understand it, Calvinism teaches that man does not have a free will! Now, Machen says that our evil deeds are "part of His eternal plan". Does this then mean that God has from eternity past "planned" that people comit adultery, murder, steal, become homosexual? If our evil actions are predetermined by God Himself, it would be unjust for Him to punish us for doing things that were outside of our control. In fact, forgetting the language used by Grudem and Machen, in making God exempt from His own plans, it actually makes God responsible!

    This is all blasphemy!
     
  2. PastorSBC1303

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    Man has a will....however that will is either enslaved to sin or enslaved to Christ.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    Is it a black and white situation, or are there shades of gray?

    Is it either all the way one way or all the way the other?
     
  4. BrotherJoe

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    AA0310: Calvinism teaches that God has foreordained all things that come to pass. They base this on supposition that if God does not "ordain", or "cause" ALL THINGS, then He cannot be God

    BROTHERJOE: The doctrine that God foreordained all things is based on the premise that nothing could happen without God willing to permit it to occur.This must be true since an all powerful God has the power to stop anything he wishes. Do you know of anything God refused to permit to happen and it happened anyway?

    AA0310:"Ordain" means that God "causes" us to carry out evil deeds!... This is completely against what the Word of God teaches, as it does make God the author of our sinful actions! Further, if our evil actions are something that is controlled by an outside force, then surely they cannot be said to be our actions at all, as they do not originate with us. Then we cannot be accountable for our sinfil lives!


    BROTHERJOE: Not so. God could ordain sin, yet still not be responsible or the direct cause of the sin! How so? God simply removes his restraining grace from the sinner, thereby giving the sinner up to act out his own sinful desires of his will. God removes his holy hand of restraint from the sinner thereby giving the sinner more freedom to act according to his sinful will. God gives the sinner a longer leash and the sinner hangs himself!

    AA310:Here we read that man does have a free will, but as I understand it, Calvinism teaches that man does not have a free will!

    BROTHERJOE: Man has a free will in that he can choose according to the desires of his own heart. Calvinism, consistent with Biblciacl Christianity, maintaints that man's heart prior to becoming born again is desperatly wicked. (see Jeremiah 17:9). Therefore, the natural man does not choose the things of God nor can he."14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them" (1 Cor 2:14)

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  5. Alcott

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    If man has a propensity to sin-- "sinful desires"-- that he will act upon without the "restraining grace" of God, then either God willingly pushes the sinner into sin, or He is the creator of that propensity to sin which He does not restrain. The only other possibility is that something without God's approval to exist, exists anyway; in which case God is directly involved in the creation and propogation of sin.

    That His ways are not our ways sure is right!
     
  6. BrotherJoe

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    Alcott:If man has a propensity to sin-- "sinful desires"-- that he will act upon without the "restraining grace" of God, then either God willingly pushes the sinner into sin, or He is the creator of that propensity to sin which He does not restrain. The only other possibility is that something without God's approval to exist, exists anyway; in which case God is directly involved in the creation and propogation of sin.


    BrotherJoe: Which (if any) of these alternatives do you take and why?

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  7. Alcott

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    I would 'favor'(?) the position that God created the propensity to sin and does not restrain man from doing so. Sort of like making a potato salad one day for a picnic lunch the next day, not refrigerating it overnight and then blaming the salad itself for spoiling.
     
  8. PastorSBC1303

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    Wes, it appears to me from Scripture that it is a very black and white issue...consider the following:

    Ephesians 2:1 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins"

    Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

    Romans 6:16-18 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

    Now where is the grey area there? Either you are slaves to sin, or slaves to Christ.
     
  9. BrotherJoe

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    Alcott:
    I would 'favor'(?) the position that God created the propensity to sin and does not restrain man from doing so.


    BrotherJoe:

    Alcott, I believe refraining grace (meaning God preventing the unregenerate from acting out to the fullest of his evil heart's desire) is proven in Romans chapter 1. We read in Romans 1:21, "21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened... 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (Romans 1:21,24)

    And again, " 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: (Romans 1:25-26)

    And finally,

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (Romans 1:28)


    Notice, how we keep reading in these verses of God giving the sinner "up." Notice after he does this, the worst kind of sins of man then follow. I believe this is an example showing how God exercised restraining grace on the unregenerate, but then for whatever his righteous cause was, gave him over wholly to freely exercise his evil heart to carry out his evil passions unrestrained.

    I believe the only thing that would prevent this passage from proving the doctrine of God's refraining grace is if St. Paul is here referring to regenerated people in these verses, rather than the unregenerates. However, I do not find that implied in this passage, and would also find it very difficult to believe (based upon other parts of the Bible) that those whom have become born again could continually stay in the kind of habitual pattern of gross sin similar to the kind that is described in this passage (see also Romans 1:29-31.)

    What is your opinion?

    Regarding the other part of your comment, as to where the propensity to commit the first sin originated from, I must plead silence. As far as I know scripture, it is explicitly silent on this point. Perhaps the Lord has revealed to some other brothers on this board through their studied of scripture more detail on this subject than I. I would love to hear opinions based on his word!

    God bless,

    Brother Joe

    [ February 09, 2005, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    Is that why pastors sin? Is that why Deacons and Deaconess's sin? Is that why Missionaries sin? Is that why Christians behave in ungodly ways? Somehow, I see a whole lot of gray in the form of servants of Christ sinning.

    Is that why unbelievers do good things? Is that why even the most vile sinners give their children bread to eat instead of stones? Somehow, I see a whole lot of gray in the form of unbelievers behaving in Godly ways.

    Then, One must consider the Atonement for sin brought by the Christ to benefit all mankind! By the Christ atoning for sin, there is no second death because of sin. So the power of sin has been broken.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    aa0310,

    If extreme, Superlapsarian Calvinism is correct then God becomes the Author of sin. This view makes the Lord and Satan co-conspirators against us human persons. The Calvinistic crowd has more of a philosophy than a theology. Watch out! ‘Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy,’ [Colossians 2:8a] especially the variety that does not make logical sense.

    The Bible always speaks of the Devil and God as being light years apart. The enemy of our soul comes as darkness; Jesus is the Light. The evil one has his children and Jesus has children of light. One is evil while Jesus has eternally had the nature and attribute of holiness.

    I agree with this man from England. The rest, go and figure! :D
     
  12. aa0310

    aa0310
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  13. PastorSBC1303

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    Wes,

    You are comparing apples and oranges! Those in Christ are still sinners....all still sin, but we are not living in habitual sin as those enslaved to sin before Christ. There is a difference.

    So by your way of thinking, do those in Christ never sin?
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Brother Joe;
    You said;
    I know of an instance where things weren't going as God wanted them to and He changed His plans and decided to destroy all men but then He realized that Noah was a righteous believer, and didn't deserver to die So God changed His mind again and let him and him family live while still destroying the rest of the world.

    Obviously if God has absolute control then this should not of happened. But you see God isn't in control of this world, Men and Satan is, and will be until Christ returns. There rule is limited by the restrainer but it exist anyway. If God's Sovereignty was absolute then Sodom and Gomorrah could not have happened. Men have dominion over the animals of the earth and them selves. Yes God could stop it but that would not serve His purpose. God does allow things to happen but in the grander scheme of things they fulfill His Purposes.
    Calvinist see God as a dictator and that man's existence is for His pleasure. This is not so directly because God's pleasure is not to dictate us even against our wills but is for man to choose to love God by man's own free choice to do so. Love doesn't exist if it has to be created by the one desiring it. Love cannot be forced and it be the real thing. Love only happens when the one loving is allowed the freedom to do so.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Incorrect. The Bible plainly declares that God ordained sin (Acts 2). That does not make him the author of sin nor does it remove responsibility from man for sin. The Bible says that God controls all things. All things, of necessity, must include sin. Your vain and empty philosophies have led you away from the simple truth revealed in Scripture.
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    I would say the same of you and by the way Act 2 says nothing of sin being ordained.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  17. PastorSBC1303

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    ILUVLIGHT: "But you see God isn't in control of this world, Men and Satan is, and will be until Christ returns."

    Wow, I do not honestly know how anyone who studies God's Word can come to that conclusion. That is scary to me. So basically man and satan can overpower God? Anytime we make a statement saying God is not in control, we better back up and really think through and study what God's Word teaches.
     
  18. aa0310

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    The passage in Acts chapter 2 you refer to, does not in any way say that God determined, or as you would have it “ordained” Judas to betray Jesus. What we do read, is that it was God’s will that the Salvation of all men would so be brought about, and He used Judas, who betrayed Jesus of his own free will, to accomplish this. According to the Random House English dictionary, the word “ordain” means, “to decree or order, to destine or predestine”. So, are you saying that God “decrees” that we sin against Him, and then hold us responsible for our sinful actions? I think that this thinking is warped and clearly makes God the author of sin! You can argue all you like, but we have to deal with the facts. If God causes sin in the world, then we can only conclude that He is responsible for sin! Something that is impossible! You would have us believe that God not only allowed the fall of man, but that He also “made them do it”! As this is exactly what to “ordain” this would mean!

    As I have said, this area of Calvinism this clearly heretical, as it teaches things that are not found in Scripture! We are talking about a Holy God, Who hates sin in all its forms, and yet you can say that God ordains sin? Maybe you can explain what you mean by “ordain”, if its not what the English dictonaries describe it, then I suggest it not be used.

    The fact that God cannot, and does not cause or ordain any form of sin, does not mean that He is not in complete control. There are many things that we do that go against the will of God, but this does not mean that He is not in control of everything! Remember that man is a free agent, and therefore responsible for his actions. Of course Calvinism teaches that man does not have a free will to choose to do good or bad, even though the Bible clearly says so!
     
  19. Matt Black

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    No ordaining without responsibility and vice versa

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  20. aa0310

    aa0310
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    Hi Matt

    Please explain what you mean.
     

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