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Calvinism/origin of sin 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Mar 21, 2011.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I agree but I was speaking of an open act of Love for me and you. Even Christ said there is no greater love than to lay down your life for a friend. Christ willingly layed down His life for me and you who were strangers. To save us from the effects of sin. There is nothing greater than God in anything and since Christ and the Father are one. Well what can I say there simply is nothing greater than God.
    MB
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Well, I think we will just have to agree on that one. :)
     
  3. Osage Bluestem

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    Here is the answer Vincent Cheung gives to the James 1:13 objection:


    Quote:
    Link: http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf
     
  4. Osage Bluestem

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    The passage isn't talking about universalism. Your post doesn't make any sense, unless you are affirming you are indeed a universalist.
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Uh? :confused:

    How do you figure?
     
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I am at the Ligonier Conference in Orlando, Fl getting ready to be inspired and charged and spiritually fed by some of the greatest, most Christ centered minds in the country.

    My posts will be sporadic at best for the next few days.
     
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Sure God is complete in and of himself.

    Nothing can make him anything more or less than he always is.

    But in order for him to SHOW the greatness of those attributes which cannot be improved, some things must exist.

    For instance, God can show his love without sin, but God cannot show the awesome extent of it apart from Calvary. Calvary love is the manifestation of the amazing depth and height of the love of God.

    There can be no mercy without sin. There can be love, but not MERCY which is the startling manifestation of the extent of God's love.

    That CANNOT exist without sin.

    There can be no saving grace without sin. No grace to be bestowed and experienced and praised forever. There can be LOVE but no display of it's unfathomable depths unless sin existed.

    There can be no Redeemer receiving the praises of the redeemed forever.

    The one True God is Sovereign over and in and through EVERYTHING that ever happens.

    EVERYTHING happens according to his plan that he might manifest his glory and lavish his people with love that could only be shown in a world like the one we live in.
     
    #107 Luke2427, Mar 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2011
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I know you are trying to be definitive Luke but it doesn't work.
    God is complete in and of himself. Period.
    There is no "But..."
    You have just put a number of limitations on a limitless God. You have taken away from an all-sufficient, all powerful God.

    The God of the Bible does not need your parameters. God is a God of grace and mercy. Period. Case closed. He is grace and mercy. He doesn't need mankind to prove that he is gracious and merciful. He was full of grace and mercy before the foundation of the world. His character never changes.

    He is the same: yesterday, today, and forever.
    "I am the Lord; I change not."

    The flaws of Calvinism are very evident here. You believe that God NEEDS sin and sinful mankind for God to be God. God was already God before the world was created, and He hasn't changed, and never will.

    Nothing more is needed to exist for him to declare His glory
    He is God. He needs nothing, not man, not sin. He will be glorified with or without man. He doesn't "need" man.
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    There can be no mercy for sinners if there is no sin.

    There can be no saving grace if there is no sin to save sinners from.

    There can be no suffering Lamb to receive the reward of his suffering forever pleasing his father by dying for sin and receiving the praises of a multitude which no man can number without sin.

    To argue otherwise is quite silly.
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Men wouldn't need mercy if there were no sin


    Salvation isn't needed with out sin.
    Why do you insist that Christ has a need to suffer for man when with out sin Christ would have won the battle before it ever started.
    Well worse that being silly is to assume that God lust after the praises of men and is why He had to be crucified.
    MB
     
  11. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    you would rob God of his right to show the depths of his love. By saving sinners thru the sacrifice of his son God displays the unfathomable depths of his love. God does not lust for the praises of men, but he certainly does have a great Passion for his glory. Any student of the scriptures knows this.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:18-21)

    God is the potter. We are the clay. We cannot complain, demand, order God to do anything. He is the Creator. He has every right to do anything that he pleases including sending the whole human race into hell. And he still would be glorified in doing so.

    You seem to be as the Romans were questioning the goodness of an Almighty and Sovereign God who has power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor--or even to make them all unto dishonor, and be perfectly glorified in doing so. Who am I to question God. You are in no place to put limitations on God and say that: God cannot do this, UNLESS....
     
  14. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Again I ask, what kind of father would you be if you beat and hurt your children so you could show how merciful you are in caring for their aches, bruises, and broken bones?
     
  15. Osage Bluestem

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    I believe that Romans 9:11-23 teach that the destruction of wickedness is to the glory of God and to the benefit of the elect.
     
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Two things:
    I am not God and neither are you. It does not matter what we perceive to be mercy based on our treatment of our children. His ways are above ours and they are past finding out.
    Secondly, your analogy ie not applicable. We do not portray a God who beats people to show his mercy. That is silly.
    We declare a God who let people fall and catches many of them to show his mercy.
    If you are a Christian at all you have to believe that much.
    The difference is you believe God had no purpose in the fall. To us, that notion is ludicrous.
     
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Ah ! The force doesn't seem to be with you today Luuuke. I believe DHK and Crabtownboy showed you the truth. God doesn't need anything. We need God. I know I'm God dependant. Other wise I wouldn't have the strength to survive. God loves you Luke. Why not agree with scripture instead.
    MB
     
  18. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    What kind of God allows people that are not His children to beat and murder His own son in order to save the murderers from their sins? An unfathomably merciful God!
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    MB, it is you who have adopted this new, nameless, man-made theology which cannot be supported in Scripture and no one believed until 75 years ago.


    No one is saying that God needs anything. That's silly.

    But God WANTED to SHOW his greatness. He wanted to manifest and have a people experience his majesty and the wonder of his love and holiness.

    In order to show the DEPTHS of his love, Calvary type love, CALVARY was necessary.

    This is SO simple!

    Without sin there is no Calvary.

    Romans 5:8 "But God shows his love to us in that while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us."

    How does God SHOW his love, MB?

    By dying for sinners.

    It is nothing but stubbornness for you to keep arguing otherwise.

    You do not have a case. You have no Scripture.

    Will you believe the Word of God or rebel against it? That is where you and Crabtown are at this point.

    Why is there such a thing as grace? Can you answer that?

    I'll give you a hint. Look in Ephesians 2.
     
  20. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    That is a huge cop-our on your part. God and Christ, the example we are to use for our own life. So the analogy is applicable.


    Only because Calvinists refuse to carry their beliefs to their logical conclusion. I am not sure why this is true. It may be that they are afraid to do so. It may be for some other reason.

    What kind of father allows his children to 'fall' to show his mercy. This is anathema to what we see in the life of Christ ... the greatest revelation of God that we will ever have.

    God can use any event to gradually bring about good. God would much rather that there was no fall as that would mean he would have a face-to-face relationship with all of us ... as he did with Adam and Eve before the fall.

    Do you really believe he would rather have things as they are now, with all the evil in the world rather than the type of relationship he had with Adam and Eve.

    Why in the world would he predestine evil ... and don't tell me it is to show how good and merciful he is. There is no logic in that stance.

     
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