Calvinism presents Absurdity

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Jul 25, 2013.

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  1. Van

    Van
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    Not true. According to the WCF God has decreed everything such that it will happen, because God foreknows it, i.e. the future. There is no room for permissive will, where God allows His creation to exercise autonomous choices.

    Yet another bogus assertion. What Isaiah 46:01-11 says is God declares the end from the beginning, so whatever God has declared will happen, God will make happen. "All righteousness" is not even mentioned. Thus if God planned for men to make autonomous choices, God will create people able to make autonomous choices, and will allow autonomous choices rather than predestined choices.

    God did know that Israel would be obstinate. This in no way supports God has predestined each and every act of obstinacy. Fallen people sin.

    Again, another verse having nothing to do with the bogus assertion. Here we see that the Old Testament prophets taught of the Messiah, and that anyone who believes in Christ will receive forgiveness of sins.

    So yet again, Calvinists provide verses that show God predestines some things, that He knows what He will bring about, and that His redemption plan included people autonomously choosing to believe in Christ.

    So by the numbers:

    1) Biblicist denies the Calvinism presented in the WCF in that he claims God did not decree whatsoever comes to pass, yet the WCF says God did decree what He then foreknows, and thus disavows the concept of God having a permissive will where He allows others to make autonomous choices.

    2) None of the verses cited supports exhaustive determinism, yet Calvinism asserts those verses teach exhaustive determinism. LOL
     
  2. saturneptune

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    Moderators, please move this thread to the CA forum.
     
  3. InTheLight

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    It's interesting that their "proof texts" are usually the same two or three verses whereas dozens of verses refuting them can be found throughout the Bible. Also, I would be hesitant to build doctrine on verses found in Psalms.
     
  4. Van

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    Moderatiors, please remove post #2 as being off topic.
     
  5. saturneptune

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    There is nothing special about you. Everyone was told to start the nonsense Calvin-free will threads in the new section. Can you read, and if so, do you abide by the rules?
     
  6. DrJamesAch

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    No not everyone, only Non Calvinist are required to post in that forum, Calvinist postings can post whereever they want. http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86705 Post 6 and 7. I was given a warning about starting threads involving Calvinism at the same time Doc responded to that thread listed. Mine was moved, his wasn't, nor have the plethora of threads started by Biblicist that are clearly Calvinist, and against the Non Calvinist views.
     
  7. saturneptune

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    On that point I agree. There should be equal enforcement regardless of ones side on an issue.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    if Arminians do not value the Sovereignty of God, why do you think they should follow rules on BB on where to post ?:wavey:
     
  9. The Biblicist

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  10. The Biblicist

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    Why not try to present what I said fairly? I never denied God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass. I simply expounded the way he did it. Permissive will (in regard to sin and its consequences) versus will of good pleasure.

    You also ignore that Isaiah 46:10-11 includes His will of good pleasure as verse 10 explicitly states "I will do all my pleasure" - v. 10b

    You have so much hatred within you that you cannot even deal fairly with those who oppose your position.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ahhuh...& what benefit is it to us to even argue with them?:BangHead:
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Oh Good Lord...you finally noticed:applause::laugh:
     
  13. DrJamesAch

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    What a stupid comment.

    So does that mean that Calvinists who do not follow the rules on the BB do not value the sovereignty of God?
     
  14. The Archangel

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    The only absurdity here is your butchering of the Westminster Confession (which I do not hold to, by the way).

    Article 3 is as follows:

    If you'll notice, the word is "ordain." The ordaining of things is not the same as the determination of things. Ordination takes the free will of man into account; determination does not.

    Of course, I have no expectation that you'll listen, for you never do. I have no expectation that you'll rightly articulate our position, for you never do. I have no expectation of any capacity in you to do anything other than interact with your caricature-strawman, for you never do.

    On the other hand, I have every expectation that you and the other anti-Calvinistic, anti-Sovereignty, open-theist types will try again and again to instruct me as to what I believe rather than listen to what I am saying. I guess it's just easier to interact with a figment of your own imagination...

    The Archangel
     
    #14 The Archangel, Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2013
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Let's make a couple things clear.

    Start a thread intentionally Calvinistic/Arminian with "poke-in-the-eye" language and I'll erase it.

    Like this one.

    Start a thread on Calvinistic/Arminian topic and too stupid to put it in the correct forum, I will assume malice and start awarding suspension points.

    And I can do this. Talk about "absurd".

    We HAVE rules about provocative speech and hating brothers. We HAVE a place for these discussions and I cannot imagine "Christians" unwilling or unable to abide by these rules.
     
  16. Van

    Van
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    Pitchback

    1) I presented your views accurately.

    2) You did deny that God decreeing something sets it in stone because God then foreknows it will happen in just that way. It does not matter whether it is a primary cause, a secondary cause or whatever cause, all are decreed, foreknown and predestined to occur. There is no room for a permissive will if whatsoever comes to pass is foreknown and predestined.

    3) I did not ignore, but specifically addressed Isaiah 46:10-11, saying the Calvinism view leaves no room for permissive will. I also addressed that God does predestine and bring about whatever He purposes to bring about.

    At the end of the day, your post provides no support for the mistaken doctrines of Calvinism.
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    Not sure what you are saying here, Dr. Bob. I think saying God predestines whatsoever comes to pass yet God is not the author of sin is an absurdity. So I said Calvinism presents absurdity.

    Are you saying "absurdity" is now an off limits word because it is a poke in the eye? Absurd = ridiculously incongruous or unreasonable. If God has fixed the future, including each and everyone of our sins, then to say God is not the author of sin seems to be presenting ....
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    No you did not! Anyone reading what you said versus what I said knows you did not fairly represent me. Instead you read your meaning into my words instead of allowing me to define my own terms. For example, look at the #2 below and your INTERPRETATION of what I said rather than being fair and simply stating what I said.

    See how you add your interpretation to my words! You don't stop with reinterpreting my words but you go on to say:


    So, you claim to be the final judge and jury as to how God can and cannot decree something. The permissive will of God is clearly made plain in Psalm 76:10 and the will of good pleasure is explicitly stated in Isaiah 46:10 "I will do all MY PLEASURE."

    When the Bible speaks of the "will of God" there are various applications:

    1. The REVEALED will of God or the Scriptures - Deut. 29:29a
    2. The SOVEREIGN will of God's - Deut. 29:29b
    a. Permissive will of God in regard to sin - Psa. 76:10
    b. Postive will of God's good pleasure - Isa. 46:10/Philip. 2:13b "my pleasure"

    Another misrepresentation of my view as I never gave Isaiah 46:10 to prove God's permissive will but his will of pleasure "I WILL do ALL MY PLEASURE"
     
  19. Van

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    No need to make up charges that are false.

    1) Did Biblicist say what his actual view was? Nope.

    2) Next, I am not the judge or jury, I am presenting the carefully documented views written concerning the WCF. There is no room for a permissive will if everything is decreed, foreknown and predestined. If my choice is decreed and predestined by God, then my choice is a non-choice, and God authored it.

    3) If God decreed, foreknew, and predestined whatsoever comes to pass, the only "will" in view is exhaustive determinism.


    a) Deuteronomy 29:29 does not mention the will of God, but does say God does not reveal everything, but what He does reveal belongs to us and those who come after, so we can observe the works of the Law.

    b) Psalm 76:10 again does not mention "permissive will." It says when God exercises His righteous judgments upon men, those delivered will praise God.​

    Bottom line, Biblicist simply reposts non-germane verses over and over, adding nothing but ad homenim charges to the mix.

    There is no room for a "permissive will" where God allows His creation to make autonomous choices that have not been predestined, according to the WCF. Everything has first been decreed, and then foreknown, and then predestined. Period.

    The Biblical view is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of sin.
     
  20. webdog

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    You do know what ordain means, right? To order of decree. You are playing semantics

    Pure ad hominem trolling. The absurdity is your entire post.
     
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