Calvinism - TULIP - "U"nconditional Election

jdlongmire...welcome. Its good to see another person that sees a high view of God on the board.

happy posting​

 

Brother James, the Calvinist never 'won' that is why they are still trying to prove their point for the last 500 years (and it is still falling just as short) :laugh: :thumbs:

 

At least we can see which side has the most pride

 

Well even Calvinists believe that unless the regenerate man believes he can not be saved. Thus you still have man cooperating with God regardless of if God gave him it, man's salvation is still dependant upon mans choice to believe.

Therefore it is not God alone (in the full scope of the salvation process) as is falsly stated for if that were true it would not matter if man believed or not. God alone saves a man but man alone must choose to believe God and what He said.

Your correct, I missed one.
3. The 'gift of God' is also what you receive from your labor.

But still it never means what you try force it to.

I think you will find I am not.
First I said the context of the surrounding passages are clearly speaking of salvation. Now if you wish to remove the passage from the context to make it say something else that is your choice.
Secondly, there is a lot here I can say regarding this passage your .. rendering.

However, I have been down this road many times and know that this will get very technical I will simply cut and past this - forgive me for doing so but I have done the whole let's examine the Greek thing to death in the past on here and don't particularly feel like writing it all again unless I have to. But I will elaborate on what you desire. I agree with the contents and examination done by GREGORY P. SAPAUGH
in his work "Is Faith a Gift" who examines both sides of the argument - here:

Please show where scripture makes any such distinctions. Faith is faith.

You seem to forget the 'why' Jesus said what he said about that event..
Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Jesus make no such distinction between so called saving faith and experiential/experimental faith. - faith is faith -
However there is a special blessing toward those who have not seen and still believe.

Both faiths are acceptable and Jesus affirms this, but as I stated there is a special blessing toward those who have not seen and yet believe.

You apparently didn't understand what I meant (probably my fault - sorry)
Man has a flawed faith - so when God regenerates a man (in the Calvinistic view) does not that mans faith become renewed or does his faith stay flawed even though he is a new creation and old things are now gone?

 

Hi Allan. I appreciate your look at scripture. I have heard other Greek scholars argue convincingly that "this" is referring to God's "Grace" on the one hand and "faith" on the other. I guess it depends on which scholar you prefer, and that may not help us much to decide which is the best translation.

Concerning the above quote. He interchanges the words "salvation" and "grace" in his explanation.

They should be considered two different things. The "Grace" of God (unmerited favor) results in the "salvation" (positional security before God) of men, which is appropriated by men by their "faith".

Therefore, they did not obtain "grace" by their faith; they obtained salvation by their faith. The Grace was the work of God that initiated the salvation process, while we were spiritually unable to respond to Him.

This is made clear by the context. Eph. 2:3-7 "Among them we too all formily lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus...."

Please notice how Paul equates being made "alive together with Christ" with the Grace of God that results in salvation. The being "made alive" is passive on our part. It is the result of God's grace, though no further details are given concerning the "how", but much detail concerning the "why".

peace to youraying:

 

I can understand you point. To me I see the one way but what helps establish this (for me) is the context of the surrounding passages as well as the systamitic breakdown of the verse to better understand it. As I said - I do see saving faith as a gift in a sense because if it had not been for God choose to intervene man deserved at the very least the worst of Hell.

That was a quote by John Calvin

His point however was that they obtained or received His 'grace' (concerning salvation) through faith.
His grace without their faith has no effect regarding salvation because He has chosen to save by faith. So here 'grace' is seen as the work of God toward and in salvation.

Not sure if that answers anything for ya.

 

I edited my above post while you were responding. I hope this makes my position a little clearer.

peace to youraying:

 

Allan, you amaze me how right you can be at times and how wrong you can be at times. God regenerates (cause), then man believes (effect). God alone. That's Monergism brother!

 

Here is the full quote from Calvin Commentaries on Eph 2:8

So I'm still not following you though.

Salvation is a work of God's grace and that was what he was referencing by the interchange.

You stated previously:

But in your selected verses you stop short of the 'how' which Pauls explains it simply in verse 8 - through faith.

 

I understand that.. however if God does it alone then man's belief is of no consequence negitively or positively. That is true Monergism.

Yet man even a regenerate man who has not yet believed is not saved until he believes. I know that in your view he 'will' eventually believe (I'm just using the space of time as an example here). Thus man still cooperates with God because it was God's choosing to be done in such a way. God does not believe for the man but man himself must believe that he might be saved. This is crux that unhinges (to me at least) this argument.

It is indisputable that God alone saves, but it is also indisputabel that man must believe for God to save him.

According to scripture belief/faith has no merit in and of itself and is why it is not considered a work. Thus using faith still give man any reason to boast for he has not saved himself but has trusted in that God will do what God said He would. Thus God alone saves man.

 

It is a "mystery" only to those who are blinded to what scripture says, jdlong. And I would further assert that it is the work of the devil who desires just that blindness in his "subjects." But scripture doesn't get any clearer than " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house." There is absolutely no other conclusion that can be made than that salvation hinges upon your personal decision/choice!

Totally inappropriate analogies, jd (except to a Calvinist for whom all the unregenerate are "brain dead.") And as webdog points out, belief and trust are a gift to ALL mankind as ALL believe and trust in something. The point is that belief and trust in Christ are NOT gifts but are the appropriation of them to one's Savior.

You quite obviously are "brainwashed" into one specific way of thinking about "free will" if the simple words are not self-explanatory. The "will" is the conclusion of our deliberations of intellect, emotions, and flesh regarding a perceived choice. The "will" is "free" in that it has unrestricted ability to choose from among the options.

And please don't tell me you can't find a place where freedom of the will is expressed in scripture. Surely any time salvation is offered, there is the presumption of free will on the part of everyone and anyone to respond freely.

You almost got that exactly backwards, jd. Not that God justifies by "works," but that there IS something we must do to be justified and that something is repent and trust/obey. In sanctification, though, it is the Spirit that works in us to do His will that sanctifies.

And I think this is where Calvies have it wrong. They believe that the Spirit works in them to do His will unto salvation (they are quite willing to be "sanctified") but they are balk at obeying (saying a "sinner's prayer," for instance) because they have been taught that them having anything to do by way of choice or decision is a "works" salvation.

You are going way "downstream" from the actual time of the choosing, jd. Go back to Ur. God chose Abram and Abram chose to obey God. That is where Heb 11 says "by faith Abram ... obeyed; and went out..." God spoke to (chose) Abram and Abram chose (obeyed) God. There was a "covenant" there.

skypair

 

Yes, I understood it was Calvin. I notice Calvin emphasized the previous verses as well, which described the election and calling of God's people as "Grace".

I guess I'm not being very clear. I wanted to make the distinction which I see in the passage, between the "Grace" (unmerited favor) of God (as seen in His election and calling) and the salvation of men that is appropriated by faith.

The "grace" of election and effectual calling is a work of God and is not appropriated by faith. That "grace" has already been poured out by God. The "unmerited favor" came (or behaps we should say "began") with the work of election and calling. It continues until the person has reached a right standing before God, i.e salvation.

The result of this Grace from God is what is appropriated by faith. The person responds with faith and salvation (right standing before God) is gained.

I believe it is OK to refer to the entire work of Grace as the "salvation process" (which you have), as long as you don't confuse the process with the end result (salvation...i.e. right standing before God). In other words, the "grace" of election and effectual calling is not appropriated by faith.

I don't believe Calvin was saying that when people believe the gospel, God shows grace to them for the first time in granting salvation. It is clear that Calvin saw in this passage that God was already at work in the person's life and Paul had referred to that work as "grace".

The previous verses give the context to verse 8 (already being discussed BTW) and focus on "why".

It is clear, though, that salvation is appropriated through faith.

I see we are very close in our understanding here. I think the key may be what I have described above.

Do you see the "grace" of God in "election" as being given to the person after they have exercised "faith"? If you do, is that consistent with the passage we are discussing?

peace to youraying:

 

I was just giving the full quote so it could be seen in context is all.

Ok. I see what you're saying now.

I see nothing in what you wrote above that I would disagree with, with maybe some clarification on this sentence "The "grace" of election and effectual calling is a work of God and is not appropriated by faith." To an extent I agree but I'm not sure I know exactly what it is you are meaning. It is pretty much what I believe though I might see the scope of a few aspects a little more so than you do. But yes, I agree as far as I understand you.

I completely agree.

Understand that we see election somewhat differently though my view is still more similar to yours than some other non-cals. In relation to you question the answer 'No'.

 

OK. Could you explain how we differ in our view of election? Do you follow, as the OP states, that election is "unconditional" upon anything a person does or will do in the future?

peace to youraying:

 

OK, when the BIBLE says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved,...", is believing not a "condition" for being saved? "If thou wilt confess with thy mouth... and believe in thy heart..., thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9

Which is the precondition to being saved so far as scripture tells us, jd -- "election" or "believing?"

It's just that simple. "Election" is not a precondition of salvation; salvation is a precondition of "election." Therefore, God does tell us (vice RC Sproul's/Calvinism's assertions to the contrary) "how He chooses whom He does to election." He chooses BELIEVERS. And if you don't think that God can foresee who will believe, you don't believe in an omniscient God.

skypair